The music landscape has changed a lot since the turn of the 21st century. Not just styles, but how we consume music. Nothing illustrates that better than the rise of the indie music scene.

In his new book Such Great Heights: The Complete Cultural History of the Indie Rock Explosion, Stereogum managing editor Chris DeVille looks at how changes to TV, the internet, and the record industry fueled the rise in early ’00s indie music.

DeVille talks with WDET’s Russ McNamara. Click on the link to listen or read selected excepts below. 

The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.

RM: So why write this book?

DeVille: There’s many different sort of through lines that are being traced here. One of them is technology. It’s a subject that I think is really complex and really fascinating, and it involves a lot of my favorite music ever.

This stuff that has been kind of chronicled and debated online for years in blog posts and social media posts and a lot of the documentation of it is starting to disappear, because websites just go offline, or people delete their social media accounts. And so I wanted to create a little bit more permanent record of some of these things that happened—some of the ways that these bands broke through, some of the conversations that were being had around this music.

One reviewer compared it to like a yearbook that you look back at and you get some fond memories, and you get some cringe, but yeah, it’s kind of like a history of my listening as an adult.

Russ McNamara, WDET: In the book, you mention the TV show ‘The OC’ which was a popular teen soap opera in the early ’00s. How much did that show’s soundtrack play into the rise in indie rock?

Chris DeVille, author of “Such Great Heights”: I was surprised as I was writing the book, how much it became like a shadow history of the evolution of the Internet over the last couple of decades. And you know The OC thing, it’s like they’re putting these bands in front of a much bigger audience. Like Death Cab for Cutie is like a fairly obscure band at the time, and then this character on this popular teen show is like making his whole personality that he loves Death Cab for Cutie.

It’s like giant platform, but then they lose cool points with some people, as you know, sort of a more norm-y audience discovers this band, but it’s definitely, there’s no doubt that it was a huge like funnel, bringing a bunch of bands to a much broader audience

RM: What about the added accessibility of file sharing sites like Limewire and Napster?

CD: Whatever platform you were using to pirate music I think contributed to the accessibility of stuff. Stuff could blow up, even if it didn’t fit into a particular radio format, or it wasn’t getting past the MTV gatekeepers. It didn’t have to fit into any existing niche or existing format to blow up. It could just catch fire and go viral on these file sharing servers.

I mean, the same thing was still true when iTunes came in and kind of formalized and commercialized the process. You could still have a song that people would download it like crazy.

RM: Which indie bands benefitted the most from this setup in the early 00’s?

CD: Arcade Fire was definitely the biggest. The other dimension that I talk a lot about in the book, is Pitchfork. And just like the power that Pitchfork had to make or break someone’s career. If they gave something a 10.0 people were just going to jump on it and worship it. And if they kind of talked smack about a particular band or completely panned a band, then there were instances where that basically ended someone’s commercial prospects. And so like Arcade Fire were like the perfect storm.

RM: So where is indie rock at now? Is it dead? Does the genre really mean anything anymore?

CD: Over time, indie became like more of a genre, and then the genre itself started to change. But I think what we saw happen in the 2010s is sort of like the indie goes pop thing. It was like a bubble, and it really did pop. We still have these sort of like boutique pop stars like Clairo.

We had artists that came out of the indie world become pop stars of a sort because of stuff like Tiktok. Like Mitski is a good example of that where she’s coming from, from the indie rock infrastructure, and she is making music that jumps across genres a little bit.

There’s a hunger for bands that have a little bit more of an edge to them, that are a little bit less smooth, a little bit willing to be weird or noisy. That’s what you see with a lot of the biggest indie bands today – ones that have gone against that sort of, like Spotify-friendly, passive-listening experience. There’s now a hunger for music that’s a bit more abrasive, something that will jolt people out of their stupor.

Music wants to evolve. It wants to find new audiences. And so the whole idea of like, gatekeeping and having the right audience versus the wrong audience, like, that’s something that factors into the book too.

It’s a crowded field in the race for the Democratic nomination for Michigan Secretary of State.

Ingham County Clerk Barb Byrum and Deputy Secretary of State Aghogho Edevbie are already in the mix.

And now another entrant, Suzanna Shkreli. She’s a former Deputy Legal Counsel for Governor Whitmer and recently resigned as Michigan Lottery Commissioner.

She recently spoke with WDET’s Russ McNamara about why she decided to run.

The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Russ McNamara, WDET: So why are you running?

Suzanna Shkreli: There is so much on the line. I believe that our democracy is at stake. My parents came to this country as children to escape an authoritative government. They fled the former Yugoslavia, and really it’s unthinkable that those same dangers that they fled from have taken root right here at home.

From my work securing convictions against child predators and murderers, as an assistant prosecutor in Macomb [County] to serving in Governor Whitmer’s cabinet as Michigan’s child advocate, I know I have the track record and toughness to make sure this office stays in Democratic hands and to take on those extremists who would try to mess with our elections and silence our voices.

I also know that this job has the opportunity to make working people’s lives, a little bit better and more convenient. I grew up working in my parents restaurant as a child. I learned great customer service early on in my life, and I’ve taken those lessons to every single position I’ve had, and I want to use this job to make Michiganders’ life a little bit easier, from implementing a digital driver’s licenses to working towards faster election results to special walk-in hours for seniors. This job can protect Michiganders fundamental right to vote, but also make the lives of Michiganders more convenient, too.

RM: Given your extensive legal background, why not run for Michigan Attorney General?

Shkreli: So to speak quite frankly with you, this position requires somebody who has taken on tough fights to protect those who don’t have voices. Or those, in this instance, whose voices are trying to be silenced and that’s what we’ve seen with the rising extremism across our state and our country. We need to make sure that we have somebody who can defend the Constitution and defend people’s rights, which is what I’ve done in the past.

I want to use this job to make Michiganders’ lives easier.

RM: Do you have any experience with election administration?

Shkreli: When I served in Governor Whitmer’s office, I was a deputy legal counsel, and I worked on a variety of issues while I was there. I volunteered elections in the past. I’ve worked polls in the past, but also I worked hand-in-hand with the Secretary of State’s office in December of 2020 to deliver the meeting of the electors.

That day the Michigan State Police had flooded the Capitol because of the threats that we received, we did not know what to expect that day. And you had the the electors, [and then] the fake electors try to come into the capitol to deliver those electoral votes. And because of our preparation with Michigan State Police, and because of our preparation with the Secretary of State’s office, we were able to complete the governor’s constitutional requirement and deliver those electoral votes. And that memory is seared in my brain because of the rising level of extremism that we’re seeing against government workers, poll workers and election workers.

RM: Where is this extremism coming from?

Shkreli: I think that there’s rising extremism happening. And Americans and Michiganders all need to step up and call a spade a spade when we’re seeing that. Secretary Benson has done such a wonderful job and who knows where we would have been in 2020, if she wasn’t in that position. So I’m ready to continue that work forward.

I’ve been talking to political leaders throughout the state, and I hope to seek the endorsement of them, but the truth is that this nomination will be on the grassroots level, and that’s what I’m focused on.

I’m running for this office because I know that I’m the best candidate to win the convention as well as win the general. Just in 24 hours, we earned $200,000 which is the most that any Secretary of State candidate has raised in 24 hours. Which is more than some candidates in this race have raised for the last 10-11 months since they’ve been running. So it’s a sign of enthusiasm.

RM: Where are those donations coming from? Are we talking large money donations or a lot of individual ones?

Shkreli: We have donations for Michiganders across the state. We’re really excited about the enthusiasm. We expect this just to be the beginning.

Michigan Congresswoman Haley Stevens introduced articles of impeachment against Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Wednesday.

“Enough is enough. We cannot allow a public official to weaponize misinformation while cutting the very research that saves lives. It’s time today to impeach RFK Jr.,” says Stevens. 

She initially stated her intention to file articles of impeachment against the Make America Healthy Again Secretary in September.

Like many other Democrats, Stevens says Kennedy’s attempts to delegitimize vaccinations and promotion of pseudo-science makes him unqualified for the job.

Kennedy Jr. has taken heat from epidemiologists for turning anti-vaccination misinformation into policy, disregarding decades of research that points to the effectiveness of vaccines. Public health officials also condemn his promotion of conspiracy theories around autism.

Rep. Stevens says he has violated his oath, citing how how cuts implemented and supported by Kennedy Jr. have made insurance less accessible and hurt research institutions, like those at Michigan universities. “I’ve heard from Republican doctors in Michigan who’ve been calling me to thank me for standing up for science,” says Stevens.

Kennedy Jr. oversaw the firing of thousands of public health experts from the Centers for Disease Control and the National Institutes of Health.

Stevens’ impeachment attempt likely won’t go far in the Republican-controlled U.S. House. It’s unclear whether the move is backed by Democratic leadership.

When asked if House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries backed the impeachment bid, Stevens said she’d let Jeffries speak for himself.

It’s been over a week since Democrats showed up to the polls and secured big wins in places like Virginia, Maine, and New York City. Turnout—especially in the Big Apple—was high.

Was it the messaging of affordability that drove turnout… or was it raging against the Trump Administration?

Detroiter Branden Snyder is the state director for the Working Families Party.

Snyder talked with WDET’s Russ McNamara. 

The transcript below has been edited for length and clarity.

Russ McNamara, WDET: What is the platform for the Working Families Party?

Branden Snyder, Working Families Party: The Working Families Party, or WFP, is a national organization that is working to build political power for the multi racial working class. And so in some states, like in New York, it’s an actual party, where it has a party line where people are able to vote for candidates who are WFP endorsed candidates, as well as candidates who are Democrats, through the system that’s called fusion voting.

In states like Michigan and Ohio and Wisconsin, the Working Families Party is a community labor coalition where we take action in primary elections, and in non-partisan city council races like we just had last week. And so what we’re trying to build here in Michigan is a political system that works for the many and not the few, and that means being able to recruit and advocate for candidates who are working for the many and not the few, working on economic justice and social justice issues, and being able to actually champion them both from the starting point all the way to the finish line.

RM: The WFP endorsed two candidates: Gabriela Santiago-Romero and Denzel McCampbell. Both were elected to Detroit City Council. What made them worthy of the endorsement?

BS: Well, a number of things. I think. The first is that both Gabby and Denzel are community leaders. Gabby and Denzel, come from working class households and working class communities. I think the things that may us champion them for is their pledge to not take corporate corporate PAC dollars to their commitment to being able to pass economic justice and affordability policy at the city level.

And then [they have] a commitment to co-govern. So co-governance is really this fancy sort of political science term of this idea that we want to govern with the community – the idea that they will take direction and leadership from community organizations, from regular people, and not just billionaires and party elites. They are the ones who…actually want to be able to engage with working class people, working class communities, community organizations, labor unions, etc. So those issues and those stances and values really set them to the top of the heap for us.

And I think the other thing that we want to do was we wanted to be able to throw a punch at what we call corporate Democrats.

RM: Should I read too much into there not being an endorsement in the mayor’s race?

BS: No. In my in my previous life, I was the executive director of Detroit Action, which is a community organization that works really closely with [now mayor-elect] Sheffield on housing issues. We worked to be able to help pass and promote the people’s agenda for Detroit City Charter commission in 2021. I was on the industry standards board for arena workers with Mary Sheffield over this past year to be able to produce, produce policy for arena workers. So our endorsement didn’t reflect policy or values.

Her win is actually a historic coalition between community, labor, and faith.

RM: Zoran Mamdani, the mayor elect of New York City, has drawn a lot of attention for his Muslim faith, but maybe even more than that, was his platform is steadfastly to the left of the current Democratic Party mainstream. Is this a one off thing, or is there a distinct leftward turn in democratic politics?

BS: We’ve been working for years to build leftward momentum in Democratic politics. Part of the Working Families Party is in for lack of a better term, to pull the party towards the left and actually using that energy and that gravity to bring in folks who are MAGA voters, working class people who are feeling the impacts of SNAP cuts or the impacts of the government shutdown. So we’ve been doing a lot of work to bring in people into this sort of larger coalition that can actually win on economic justice. I think that Mandami is win in New York. It’s also a win for economic justice.

RM: There seems to be a disconnect right now between the people that showed up at the polls last Tuesday and then what happened over the weekend, where eight Democratic senators broke away from the party to end the shutdown. That move pissed a lot of people off in Democratic circles. Does the Democratic Party have an authenticity problem?

BS: I think there needs to be a changing of the guard. There’s a lot of millennials and Gen Z and even some Gen Xers who’ve been waiting in the wings to be able to showcase and be able to display power, and be able to lead from the front and lead with community.

There’s also a real desire to have candidates who will fight for people and actually fight for policy and on values.

Shutting down the federal government was a matter of principle for U.S. Senate Democrats back in October.

Tens of thousands of federal workers were furloughed. Air traffic controllers were forced to work without pay. The Trump Administration fought in court to reduce SNAP food assistance.

Tax credits tied to plans through the Affordable Care Act, aka Obamacare, were set to expire, and without them premiums were set to skyrocket. That was unacceptable to most Democrats, who wanted to leverage the shutdown to extend healthcare subsidies.

This week, seven Democrats and one independent changed their strategy and voted to end the shutdown.

They received only a promise of a vote on the ACA tax credits and assurances that federal workers fired by the Trump Administration would be rehired.

In the meantime, people are receiving notice that their premiums are going up. In Michigan, insurers are ending coverage for people through Obamacare. That could leave as many as 200,000 people in the state without coverage.

Michigan U.S. Senator Gary Peters voted to keep the government closed. He thinks it’s going to get worse unless those ACA tax credits are restored.

“Nationally, well over 20 million people are seeing large increases in their health care estimates, somewhere around 10 million will lose their health care coverage as a result,” Peters said.

Peters says he would like the Democrats who capitulated and voted to end the shutdown to speak for themselves.

“I know that they were focused on working on health care costs, but we’re also concerned about the cost of the shutdown itself,” Peters said. “Certainly government employees who had been going without a check for quite some time, which puts a real strain on our families.”

A failure of leadership?

Many Democratic voters—and some Democratic politicians—view the ending of the shutdown as a betrayal of trust and the latest instance where the party refuses to follow through on a promise.

Peters disagrees this was a failure of leadership.

“We don’t work for Chuck Schumer,” Peters said. “Every Senator represents the people in their state. I work for the people in Michigan, and my colleagues around the country work for the people in their individual states, and they have to ultimately do what they think is right.”

The Epstein emails

The White House is scrambling following the release of a new batch of emails to and from rapist and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.

The emails seem to implicate that President Donald Trump was aware of Epstein’s crimes, and that the president maintained a relationship with the disgraced financier well into his first term in office.

Epstein died in federal custody in 2019.

After promising on the campaign trail to release all the evidence collected in Epstein’s prosecution, the Trump Administration has backed off that pledge.

Peters says the American public needs to see all of the documents.

“Bottom line, I think there’s enough information out now that raises so many questions that have to be answered that we need to see the release of all of the documents,” Peters said.

Earlier this year, the Trump Administration moved Epstein co-conspirator Ghislane Maxwell to a minimum-security prison.