Michigan officials and advocates often say the state needs to give college graduates a reason to stay here and not look for economic opportunities elsewhere.

But a new report finds Michigan is actually doing a better job of keeping its homegrown students at home than many suggest.

The study, “Talent in Motion,” comes from the non-profit Strada Education Foundation.

The group’s research director at its Institute for the Future of Work is Dr. Peter Bahr. He says college-educated workers are still a key part of creating a thriving workplace.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

Peter Bahr: We know that the highly educated populations help create and sustain economic growth. And as a result of that, many states, including Michigan, have set very ambitious goals to expand their college-educated workforces. But states are making investments to achieve those goals somewhat blind, without the critical information about where their college-educated workers actually come from. We conducted this study to help solve that problem. And we created the most complete portrait to date of the sources of states’ college-educated workers.

One of the most surprising findings was that, despite much attention to recruiting college-educated workers from other areas, a state’s main source of college-educated talent is their own high schools. Across the nation about 2/3 of college-educated workers live in the state where they graduated from high school. And 55 % graduated from both high school and college in the state where they now work. Michigan, however, was remarkable because it had 72%, the highest share of college-educated workers who had graduated from both high school and college in the same state.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: You’d worked as a professor for the University of Michigan and Wayne State University. With that background, what did you think when you saw this data?

PB: I was surprised by how prominent Michigan was in that regard, what a strong share it had. I had heard for many years about the retention rate issue. And to see that Michigan is actually ahead of the average in terms of the retention of college graduates, I thought it was a very encouraging finding for a state that I think is just a wonderful place. On the other hand, many states are struggling with the contraction in their workforce driven by other factors, including retirements from the Baby Boom generation. That’s a big one with Michigan.

QK: You hear so much from government officials and others about the “brain drain” and the state losing homegrown talent. What are you finding in terms of how universities and state governments, for that matter, are operating to keep and retain talent?

PB: You’re definitely pointing to an important issue. We didn’t tackle that specifically in this report, but what we did find was related. College-educated workers that graduated from public colleges and universities are much more likely to be in that homegrown segment. And that’s especially true of the broad access publics like the regional four-year universities. I’m thinking Eastern Michigan, Western, Central. The share of their graduates that are homegrown is exceptionally high. We can contrast that with private institutions, where there’s a much smaller share of graduates who are homegrown. The public institutions, particularly non-selective or less selective, broad access, regional institutions are very much the backbone of the talent production pipeline.

In addition, colleges and universities can be part of the solution too. They need to make sure that their programs are connected to real opportunities in the workforce. And then reinforce those bridges to quality jobs by engaging their local employers in work-based learning opportunities for their students.

QK: And that’s not happening that much currently?

PB: I think everybody has got this on their mind. But it isn’t something that’s necessarily at the top of the priority list. But it is a key element of ensuring that graduates can get quality jobs.

WDET is gathering Metro Detroiters’ views of the current political landscape as part of our Citizen Vox project.

That includes Detroiter George Thompson, who we caught up with at a Midtown QLINE streetcar stop.

He says he knows citizens are supposed to have the ultimate political power: their vote.

But Thompson says he fears the typical resident has little say in what government does.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

George Thompson: Because a lot of times decisions are made from behind closed doors, where people are not allowed to go in to hear what’s going on, or pass on their opinion and try to persuade. It’s all about whoever got the political movements to make the money to give to the politicians to do the decisions that they want them to do. It’s big business. So, basically, whoever’s got the money can run it. Whoever got the money, the connections and know the people within the circle, they got the power to make whatever happens in this country happen.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: Whoever is elected to any of the offices in play, senate, governor, etc., what issues would you like to see them tackle that would be particularly important to you?

GT: Anything dealing with human rights, man, and human welfare. Giving people an opportunity to live the American dream, work hard and fulfill their dreams, hopes, and desires. A man’s home is his castle. So a man needs a place to stay. He needs to be working somewhere so he can take care of the place, raise a family to be productive citizens of this country, and live the American dream that was set for us when the founding fathers founded this country.

But right now it ain’t about that. Because if you look around, you see people who are hungry, people who are struggling, gas prices are out of control. People can’t really enjoy life like they should be. You take a pay check in one hand and it goes out the other. Inflation’s going up, but the checks ain’t going up along with it. So we’re going through some hard times right now. And it seems that nobody is really trying to help to fulfill that for us.

QK: When you talk about helping with the American dream, is there anything in particular that you’d like to see? Lowering prices somehow, trying to get more affordable housing, things like that?

GT: One thing is, before we help other countries, man, we got to make sure our country is up to par. Because we got issues and problems that we need to address seriously to help our country be strong enough so that we can be able to help others. How are we gonna help somebody with a flat tire and we got four flat tires?

There are people out here who don’t want to work, I understand that. But people who are looking for something, help them find enough minimum wage to attain some of the things that they desire in life. Shoot, I remember when rent prices were like $450. Now it’s double and triple that for the same place.

We are still making $14, $12, $10 an hour. And they think that’s supposed to be enough to attain a nice decent apartment or a roof over our head for our family. But it’s not. We struggling, man. And it’s hard. Gas prices are going up. There’s more problems now than ever. Everything just went crazy, man. It makes no sense. You give us something, then you triple up everything else to get the money back. And that’s not right. Not right at all.

Citizens hold the ultimate political power under the U.S. Constitution.

But do people in Metro Detroit feel they have the power to change or affect the government?

WDET posed that question as part of our Citizen Vox project.

Former Detroiter Stephanie Cochran says she doubts that she will feel that authority over government until a new generation of politicians take office.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

Stephanie Cochran: Culture is evolving, generations are growing, and we need fresh, young, new faces with fresh, new, young ideas that understand how times have changed. I understand tradition is important. But we have to evolve with the growing society. So, until we get new, young, fresh faces in there, we’ll never have the control. It is our right and our power to choose who we put in there. But the masses put the same people in office every time.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: If there were some fresh, new faces in there, what issues would you like to see them try to address right now?

SC: Livable wages, that’s my first thing. People are miserable in their situations. They’re working just to get by and they’re not even getting by. Most households have a minimum of two jobs per adult. In situations like that I need job security, I need better jobs, I need higher-paying jobs.

And that leads directly into affordable housing. I had to move out of the city of Detroit because I couldn’t afford to live in the city anymore. For what I was paying for a studio apartment on the riverfront, I now have a whole three bedroom home in Warren. It’s like I was bullied out of my neighborhood. I grew up in that neighborhood, I had been there since childhood. And I was bullied out because people with higher incomes have come in and bought up all the property, redeveloped it, and now everything is astronomical and sky high for native Detroiters to stay in their communities.

QK: City officials in Detroit, among many other officials, often push the need for affordable housing and that they’re addressing it. But that doesn’t seem to be having much of an impact in your view?

SC: Not really, because it sprinkles here and there. If you really want to see some dynamic impact, invest in the communities. Go door to door, knock on people’s doors, offer them grant money. “Can we help you fix your house up? Do you need some assistance buying the lot next to you so you can maintain it on our behalf?” Get creative with the options. Don’t just throw up a high-rise or a complex in the worst neighborhood in the city and call it affordable housing, knowing it’s only 40 units in that building. That’s 40 families taken care of out of what, thousands?

QK: Other issues that might be important to you?

SC: Inflation is definitely a a worry, especially with the tariffs constantly fluctuating and us being right here on the Canadian border. We see the price influx first.

QK: If you were elected to whatever position, how do you think you would go about trying to attack those issues?

SC: The first thing is more open lines of communication between the political scene and the direct constituency it serves. I think if we had more clear, concise conversations, more people voice their concerns and they were actually heard, we would get a lot farther.

QK: Does it feel like you’re kind of cut off from some of the representatives right now?

SC: It does, it does. You call and you get their aides or their voicemail. Or you’ll send an email and it will go through a chain of command. And by the time you’ve gotten your issue to someone who has the power to help, it’s either no longer an issue or you’re too exhausted to keep fighting.

For me personally, being the parent of a recent high school graduate who had to take her child to a suburban school district to feel confident in the education she was receiving, I want Detroit’s school system to pull it together. There are schools in Detroit that don’t have computer labs. There are schools in Detroit that don’t even have enough books per student. There are suburban schools that send laptops home with their students at the beginning of the school year that is theirs to maintain for the rest of the school year. Why can’t Detroit have that same type of opportunity for our students?

The Michigan Immigrant Rights Center claims thousands of unaccompanied migrant children could soon lose the chance for legal representation.

That includes some kids so young they need both an attorney and a teddy bear for comfort in court.

The immigrant center’s Ana Devereaux says the Trump administration won’t release more than $60 million Congress appropriated to help kids make their case against deportation.

The hot and smoky weather recently invading metro Detroit takes a toll on more than just residents.

It also stresses machinery, including the massive public buses used by Detroit’s Department of Transportation, or DDOT, and the regional SMART bus system.

SMART also faces an upcoming vote on a ballot proposal to renew its existing millage for another decade.

It would also extend that tax to Wayne County communities that so far have opted out of the system.

SMART’s general manager and CEO, Tiffany Gunter, says the bus service provides both independence for riders and, in these current weather conditions, a way to beat the heat.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

Tiffany Gunter: We started these cooling buses when the temperatures top 90 degrees because we recognize our shelters are limited in amenities. So being able to get away from the heat while you’re waiting on public transportation to come pick you up is just sort of our responsibility to provide shelter for our passengers.

And we opened it to everyone. You don’t have to have a fare to use the cooling buses. You can just simply get on. They were out there from July 13-17 from 11 a.m.-7 p.m. We even extended the weekend hours.

Even though the temperatures dropped below ninety, we still have this issue with air quality and we don’t want to expose our passengers to this current particulate matter. Because providing shelter is part of being a community partner and providing the public transportation.  

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: The hot weather in particular is not only taking a toll on people out and about, it’s stressing some equipment and vehicles in the region. And that’s what you guys rely on. Is that having an effect on the SMART bus system?

TG: It is happening. It happens naturally in the summer months with the air conditioning units. But before we even worry about that, we first are most concerned with our operators, our mechanics, and our passengers. We passed out masks to everyone when we started having the air quality issue last week, making sure our operators have sufficient PPE. We onloaded passengers through the backdoor of the bus and didn’t charge a fare, so that people can just get on the bus and we didn’t have that front door opening and slamming our operators with that air quality immediately. We keep the windows closed on the bus. When the HVAC fails on the bus, the bus could still run, but we choose to pull it out of service. And that’s a deliberate safety choice, not a failure on the bus’s part. We’d rather absorb a schedule impact than to put our drivers or our passengers on a sweltering bus. I think that’s worse than having the bus not come.

And we encourage everyone to use the free transit app. It’s a real-time tracking tool. We’ll let you know when the bus is coming. That way, you know if you need to stay inside of a grocery store or shopping mall for a little bit longer. That real-time tool is how we work in partnership with our passengers, so they can see when that bus is actually coming, if in fact we’ve had an accident or there is a traffic or construction delay. Those things happen as well as mechanical failures with our vehicles.

QK: I’ve talked to a number of people in auto racing over the years. They’ll tell me, “Our vehicles, our cars, they don’t just run on fuel, they run on money. That’s what keeps them going.” One would assume SMART has the same thing. But as far as I can tell, you guys have not raised the cost for fares for a while. Are you bringing in enough revenue to really properly monetize the system?

TG: The fares bring in a base amount. But our local contribution comes from the property tax millage that’s levied for SMART. That base fare allows us to provide rides for seniors for 50 cents and offer discounted student fare rides. Our fares remain the same because oftentimes if you do $2 a day for a month, it can add up to close to 70 bucks. And that can be a hindrance for a lot of people to use the system.

QK: When we’re talking about money, there is a 10-year transit millage proposal that is on the upcoming ballot which could raise some extra revenue for SMART. As general manager of the system, you’re probably for that ballot proposal. Why would you argue to voters that they should approve that mileage?

TG: My job is not to tell anyone how to vote. As a public entity we only are allowed to educate, so I don’t have a view on how people should vote. But when we talk about what’s at stake here, we know that that the measure is going to replace an expiring millage in Wayne County. It will represent a new millage for the 17 current opt-out communities. This ballot initiative will fund our fixed route service, our on-demand Smart Flex service, which is that microtransit curb-to-curb service that you can use with the app, our paratransit service, which serves people with disabilities and our most vulnerable populations, plus 46 community transit providers.

This is the first countywide vote with all 43 communities deciding to go together once the state has repealed that opt out provision. In 2022, Oakland County went all in. They closed out their opt outs and they voted to go in as a county. Since that time we’ve seen increases in ridership with our community providers in the northern Oakland space and that western Oakland space of 125%. That’s when the system really begins to work as a truly regionally connected system with no gaps.

QK: I have read articles where the writers oppose the millage because they claim that only municipalities that have previously opted out of the smart system would have to pay this increased tax. And I’ve heard others argue for years that they should not have to pay for something if they’re in, say, a rural area or some other place where they don’t think they’ll ever use a bus. Or when they do see a bus go through, it looks like it’s got only a couple of people in it. What’s your response to those kinds of comments?

TG: Public transit is investment in infrastructure. It’s access. When we look at what the industry asks us for when they’re considering where to place their businesses, they want to know two things: They want to know about the talent pool. We know we have a talent. And they want to know about access to transportation. So those two things are top of mind as we’re thinking about how a region and community grows. When you talk about the rural areas, it’s not just a fixed route bus. We had some of the same arguments against bus service in Oakland County in 2022. And those same communities are seeing a 125% increase in usage. Because it’s not a fixed route bus. It’s microtransit, it’s community transit. And the people that are using them are those same folks that oftentimes have argued against them.

You can’t look at public transit as if it’s going to be a constantly congested highway. Highways aren’t congested all day. You look at it more like an elevator where people are on-and-off throughout the day. Increased investment means we can increase frequencies, meaning the bus shows up every 20 minutes versus every 30 minutes. When we did that, added Wi-Fi and a couple of other amenities, people started trusting SMART again and came back to the service. That, combined with the transit app that shows real-time information, means we’re starting to look like a real public transit agency out here. And I’m excited about that.

A new version of one of the world’s most advanced AI platforms is being workshopped inside Detroit classrooms.

A leading artificial intelligence company, Anthropic, is piloting a model of its Claude AI system designed specifically for teachers.

The company’s head of beneficial deployments is Elizabeth Kelly.

She has a background in helping develop safeguards for A-I.

Kelly says the Claude-For-Teachers program is available nationwide but being test-driven in the Motor City.

In recent weeks the U.S. Justice Department has repeatedly questioned the integrity of elections in Michigan.

Justice officials noted that Michigan’s secretary of state could face criminal charges if non-U.S. citizens voted.

The Trump administration tried to obtain the state’s list of registered voters and election records from Wayne County. And Justice attorneys said they would send poll monitors to several Democratic-led Michigan cities, including Detroit.

They allege the Motor City might have violated election law in 2024, claiming there were long lines at polls and a lack of ballots.

Detroit City Clerk Janice Winfrey says legal monitors are always welcome at the polls, but the Justice Department’s latest accusations against the city are false.  

President Trump continues to argue, without evidence, that voting by mail is plagued by fraud, even though he often casts ballots that way himself.

But the president has hit some judicial roadblocks in his efforts to curtail voting by mail.

This week, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a state’s right to count mail-in ballots postmarked by Election Day, if they arrive within a certain grace period.

Last week, a federal judge blocked President Trump’s plan to forbid the U.S. Postal Service from delivering mail-in ballots to states that refused to provide a list of absentee voters.

Michigan U.S. Sen. Gary Peters is the ranking member of the congressional committee that oversees the Postal Service.

Peters says he welcomes the court decisions, but he still has a few concerns.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

Gary Peters: The caution to all of this is twofold. One, of course, is that the Trump administration will likely appeal this decision. And two, the court decision affected 23 states that filed suit. Michigan was one of those states, so that can’t occur here in Michigan. But that still leaves it open for all of the remaining states in the Union. So, it is simply unacceptable.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: You’re the ranking member on the U.S. Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, which oversees the Postal Service. At a recent hearing with the committee, the Postmaster General was arguing the President’s executive order would “match the ballots that a state believes they’re sending out to what actually gets sent out.” What is your response to that statement?

GP: It was ridiculous. I asked him very directly, “Under this executive order as the Postmaster General, does this mean if a state does not provide that voter information to you that you will not mail the ballots there?” And he said that is correct. “We will not mail any ballots unless that information is provided.” So clearly it’s blackmailing states that they want to provide that information.

And then his response was, “Well, states want to know that these ballots are getting mailed out.” That’s ridiculous. Because right now everybody believes that when you drop a letter into the post office box with an address you believe it’s actually gonna be mailed out. Do you need to provide a bunch of personal information before the post office actually delivers it to someone? That’s not the way the process works.

The post office has one job: Take a letter that’s dropped in a mailbox that’s addressed to somebody and then deliver it on a timely basis. And that’s how ballots should be handled as well. The clerks know who they are mailing those ballots to. They would assume, like every American, that the Postal Service will actually deliver them and then deliver them back to the clerk. So those arguments do not hold any water.

QK: You argued during that hearing that if this all went through, the Postal Service in many ways would actually be running elections. Because they would decide who should get a ballot or not.

GP: Absolutely. The U.S. Constitution is very clear that states run elections, not the federal government. The Trump administration is trying to do everything they can to take over elections at the federal level, which is unconstitutional.

We’re confident courts will continue to rule that it’s up to local communities and states, ultimately, to control elections. And yet the Trump administration is now trying to use the Postal Service to require that information be provided to the federal government before they actually will mail ballots. That gives the Postal Service tremendous power.

And when you have this voter information available to the federal government, who knows what it could be used for? We have indications that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security was making inquiries as to how could they access this data that was going to be provided to the Postal Service. That could be used for potentially nefarious purposes. It’s simply unacceptable. We have to maintain the integrity of states to run their own election and not allow the federal government to attempt to do something that is clearly unconstitutional.

QK: Is there anything you see that could be done on a congressional level to argue against this order if by some chance it’s reinstated?

GP: The Constitution’s clear. If we have to pass specific legislation, we can look at doing that as well. Certainly, this court ruling is encouraging. But, again, it only applies to the 23 states that actually filed suit against the executive order. We’ll be looking at how we can make sure that applies to all 50 states.

Blistering heat is coming to Metro Detroit.

By midweek forecasters say temperatures could hit the upper 90’s with humidity making it feel far hotter than that.

National Weather Service meteorologist Andrew Arnold says the scorching conditions will stem from what’s known as a “heat dome.”

‘Tis the season for severe weather in Michigan.

That means it’s also the season when DTE officials say fallen trees can hit power lines and lead to outages.

Only about a third of the utility’s electric grid is buried underground.      

So DTE’s Director of Vegetation Management and Operations, Bill Hutchinson, says trimming trees near power lines is a priority.

This story is a part of WDET’s ongoing series, the Detroit Tree Canopy Project.

Mt. Arvon, in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, is the highest natural point in the state.

It’s also a draw for prospective developers.

But the private company Lyme Great Lakes Timberlands aims to keep that peak pristine with only minimal cutting for maintenance.

It’s part of a conservation easement affecting about 73,000 acres of land in the area.

Lyme’s co-General Manager Amber Marchel says the effort is a balancing act between protecting forestland and safeguarding Michigan’s logging industry.

(Interview edited for length and clarity.)

Amber Marchel: This is a working forest conservation easement. So not only is Mt. Arvon involved but there’s actually a larger set of acreages, 73,000 roughly, that’s going to be protected by this. And Mt. Arvon is one of the great scenic parts of it. But there’s a lot of other types of habitats as well. This includes things like moose habitat, deer wintering complexes, a magnitude of rivers, lakes, streams. And then also protection around the Yellow Dog River Corridor and special trout streams as well. This conservation easement was put into place between Lyme and the Michigan Department of Natural Resources with the goal of ensuring it stays as a working forest into perpetuity. To put it plainly, it’s not that the land is being locked up, it’s just making sure that it’s a forest forever. And then still have it actively managed and accessible by the public for numerous types of recreation, things like fishing, hunting, kayaking, ATV and snowmobile use. All will be protected under this easement.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: Why did you guys decide to do this?

AM: First and foremost, it’s gonna protect this large swath of land forever and keep it as a working forest. We hear a lot about folks moving to Michigan from other parts of the country. There’s definitely an increased real estate pressure in this area. It’s not uncommon for large blocks of land to be parceled up over time and that makes management more difficult from both a forestry perspective and from a wildlife landscape level perspective. So this project ensures that it’s never gonna be subdivided, never gonna be fragmented, it’s always gonna be kept as a working forest. What does that do? It balances conservation and the working forest economy here in Michigan. It’s gonna support local mills, logging contractors and the regional forest economy, which is about a $27 billion-dollar industry in Michigan. So it’s a big deal up here and that’s what this forest conservation easement aims to protect. It’s going to make sure that those jobs and the forest that they’re tied to remain together into perpetuity.

QK: How will it protect jobs? If you’re going to have a certain area that should be left alone so that it becomes old growth forest, then no one’s able to use that for logging or other timber-related things.

AM: There are parts of the easement that are going to have less active management. One of those areas is Mt. Arvon specifically. That’s a very rare location. It’s Michigan’s highest natural point. There are certain protections up there that’s gonna really minimize management. So that might seem counterintuitive, thinking how can we protect jobs if areas aren’t gonna be harvested? But that’s a very small portion of this 73,000 acres in total. So the way that it facilitates those jobs over time is that it makes sure it’s a large block of land. You’re not dealing with fragmentation where maybe 40 or 80 acres gets sold off, therefore making even access and very simple things to facilitate timber management difficult over time. This ensures that whole block is together in perpetuity. There are parts of the easement that do limit management to some extent, but they’re pretty isolated. And one of those is on the top of Mt. Arvon, to ensure we protect some of the scenic value and the overlook area.

QK: President Trump had enacted tariffs on Canadian lumber, which many U.S. home builders relied on. He said they could make it up by harvesting more from U.S. forests. Given that, has there been any reaction from the logging industry in your area to maintaining this forest on Mt. Arvon or to conservation moves in general?

AM: For the forest products economy here in Michigan, we’re actually quite fortunate. It’s still a struggle with rising costs, especially fuel as of late. But we do have a pretty robust forest products industry here. We’re very fortunate to have a lot of sawmills within striking distance of this conservation easement. Not only sawmills, but pulp mills are especially important. There’s entire regions of the country where they don’t have that luxury. So, although it can still be a difficult industry to operate in at times, the Great Lakes states are pretty good spots to practice forestry. And we feel very lucky to have the supply chain that we do, which is another reason why it pays to keep this forest land together into perpetuity. It helps keep these local mills and contractors going for the foreseeable future.

QK: In regards to the Mt. Arvon area, has there been any pushback from the logging industry about you guys not allowing anybody to go there?

AM: I haven’t heard of any pushback in terms of the light touch management on top of Mt. Arvon, mainly because it is such an isolated area. I think people understand when we’re talking 73,000 acres versus that immediate location on top of Mt. Arvon proper. It really is a small portion of this footprint. And you have to weigh your options. What’s most valuable? Is it timber management, recreation, aesthetics? And Mt. Arvon is just so special, it does warrant a different type of management. So no, I don’t think there is any pushback. If anything, folks are excited that it is going to be publicly accessible into perpetuity. Because, I’ll be honest, the real estate pressure’s there. We’ve had people call us looking to buy sections of land and some of those sections including Mt. Arvon. This just ensures this block is put together forever so people can continue to enjoy the views up there.

QK: People have wanted to buy places on the top of Mt. Arvon?

AM: You would be shocked, but yes. Again, the real estate pressure is definitely ramping up in the area. Sometimes you might hear Michigan being coined a climate refuge. People are realizing not only our property values are more affordable but we also kind of have less environmental issues. Knock on wood, we don’t have hurricanes, wildfires, things of that nature. So Michigan’s kind of a safe bet, if you will. And you take a look at the map, we’re surrounded by water. So yeah, it’s not uncommon to get phone calls from folks in cities from across the country who are looking to buy large swaths of land. And that can change things up here. It can be easy to take this for granted, but we have a lot of publicly accessible land. And our goal is to keep it that way.

A federal judge recently dealt another blow to the city of Detroit’s continuing challenges of its U.S. Census Bureau population estimates.

The court rejected Detroit’s argument against what’s known as the “County Cap” rule.

That’s where the Census Bureau reduces the population estimate of all cities in a given county to match the total amount of people living in the county as a whole.

Census expert Kurt Metzger has studied Detroit’s population size for almost half a century.

He says although Detroit officials lost the most recent court battle, they have won other efforts to show more people are moving to the city.

(Interview edited for length and clarity.)

Kurt Metzger: The city was getting screwed because homes that were demolished were being counted against them and rehabs weren’t being credited to them. The Census Bureau thought that these were part of the housing stock they counted in 2020. If you knock them down, then they should count against you. If they were rehabbed, sorry, we’re not going to give you credit for it. I believe, looking at the housing unit count from the 2020 census, that the Census Bureau did not count a lot of them.

What happened was, houses were reported as a demolition in 2022 and they counted it against the city. But when you rehabbed a house and somebody moved in, the city said these houses were not counted in the 2020 census either because most of them were in bad shape. They didn’t qualify as housing units. They didn’t have windows, they had roof problems and things like that. But since then they were brought back into the housing stock and should be credited.

So all that went to change the whole methodology that the Census Bureau uses. Older cities and the Rust Belt cities that had tremendous disinvestment and tremendous vacancies now are gonna start getting credit for housing that they’re bringing back into stock. And that has really driven up the number of housing units estimated for the city of Detroit. But now we’re getting screwed because of this “county cap.” It just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: The judge in that case ruled that the Census Bureau’s use of the county cap was “neither arbitrary and capricious nor intentionally discriminatory.” Do you agree with that?

KM: I have to believe that. I don’t think it’s intentionally discriminatory. I think it does discriminate against older communities and poorer communities. The Census Bureau, for county estimates, matches Internal Revenue Service records. “You lived in a county one year, where did you live the next year?” They use those numbers as part of their estimates for migration. We argue that Wayne County’s population doesn’t follow standard migration numbers. Our argument is that poor counties are undercounted because of the methodology the Census Bureau uses for domestic migration. So, you could say that there is discrimination, but it’s not intentional.

QK: Detroit officials say that by doing that, the Census Bureau is undercounting the city’s population by almost 30,000. Do you think that’s correct?

KM: I do. First of all, I think that the census itself undercounted the city by 25,000 to 30,000 people, based on some of the research we did on vacancies and the way the census was conducted. But this whole rollback each time kind of builds upon itself. If we just played out to the numbers that the Census Bureau is giving us in housing and didn’t do all these county caps, yes, easily 30,000 more population.

QK: What else is tied to showing that more people are in the city than what the Census Bureau estimates? Why is a more precise estimate important?

KM: If for nothing else, it’s for public relations. A growing city is much more attractive than a city that’s losing population. It was always hard to make the case Detroit is a great city, you ought to come here, when we had just finished the 50th or 60th straight year of population loss. And we still come up with high poverty rates, plus a number of other factors. So, it’s turning around that kind of impression, I think even more so for some of the suburban and rural residents of Michigan. It’d be nice to get people in Michigan to have a better view of Detroit. And I think they’re finally coming around. We tend to be our own worst enemies going out there and bad-mouthing Detroit. But I think the impression of Detroit is improving. People feel much better about things. You go to ball games and you stay around and you go to a restaurant. So, there’s the local buzz.

But obviously it’s going to bring more money in for programming, because many funding programs are based on population or have population in the formula. The higher you go, the more money you get. It’s certainly going to attract more people. We’ve been trying to attract retail to Detroit’s Woodward Corridor, right?

QK: With all of your experience dealing with the Census Bureau, do you think there’s a realistic possibility of it changing some of its methodology? Or is it that they’ve done it for so long in a certain manner that it’s just the way it’s going to be?

KM: It’s a pretty closed operation. Because of confidentiality restrictions and everything, it’s been very “black boxy.” Numbers go in, but you never know exactly what the Census Bureau did during the interim to come up with their final number. I think the Bureau is constantly doing tests. The problem is you have nothing to compare it to until you get to the census. But I think the Bureau needs to seriously consider changing the methodology they use or certainly come up with some other options.

On the other side, the question is do they have the funding? Does Congress even care? They’ve already been cut on their pre-2030 tests. They’re talking about using the U.S. Postal Service to do census work. The problem is there’s so many other funding issues that go on, the idea of federal research is not really highly valued, it seems, these days.

I’m hoping that they will continue to have the funding and the support for those units that are doing this work. Because I think that the methodology has to change or has to be updated, the sooner the better. I certainly don’t expect it to happen before the 2030 census though.

Former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade, who prosecuted ex-Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick for racketeering, accuses the Trump administration of adopting many of the same corrupt practices.

She’s the author of a new book, “The Fix: Saving America From the Corruption of a Mob-Style Government.”

McQuade says there are ways to rein-in the worst impulses of federal officials.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

Barbara McQuade: One of the lessons of this second Trump administration is how important it is to have three vigorous branches of government. I think the courts have largely done their part. But Congress has really just kind of rolled over. We’ve had the president encroach upon their power of the purse when he said he wasn’t going to fund things that they had already appropriated funds for. He violated the powers to levy taxes when he imposed tariffs. And now he’s violating the right of Congress to declare war.

So, I think we need a better system of electing our members of Congress. And there are a few ideas for doing that. One is ranked choice voting. That exists in a few parts of the country and I think has a tendency to weed out extremists.

We need to get our arms around gerrymandering. Michigan has been a real leader in this regard with our citizen-based redistricting through an independent committee. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that it is powerless to prevent political gerrymandering. They say it’s part of the political process, a political question that courts can’t stop. Of course, Justice Elena Kagan dissented from that Supreme Court opinion in the case Rucho v. Common Cause, saying it was antithetical to democracy to let somebody put their thumb on the scale like that.

But I think there are other things we need to do as well. We have seen, in my opinion, terrible abuse of the U.S. Department of Justice. The Justice Department was created by an act of Congress. For that reason, I think Congress could probably also add some conditions to how the Justice Department wields its power. They could make it much more difficult for a president to change what Justice does with just a stroke of a pen. And they could make it much harder to do that under the radar. There’s also a policy that restricts communications between the White House and the Justice Department. I think we could put some conditions on that to improve transparency, such as requiring that those actions be reported to the inspector general.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: Justice is supposed to be an independent agency. Yet you often hear people say that, depending on which kind of administration is in place, they’re gonna ask Justice officials to focus on particular issues or individuals. When you were a U.S. attorney, did you get any of that? Don’t look at these cases as much because we really want you to focus on something or someone else?

BM: What was always normal during the time I was U.S. attorney in the Obama administration, as well as during the 12 years I was an assistant U.S. attorney under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, the presidents would set broad priorities. They might say, “We are interested in pursuing violent crime,” for example. When Obama came into office, that administration was interested in pursuing mortgage fraud. But they weren’t directing you to focus on any particular case. They allowed you to follow the facts and the law. They just said, “This is a serious problem. We’re going to fund positions to pursue this particular problem and we would like you to investigate in this area.” But they were not directing you to charge any one individual. And I think that’s what’s so different about this moment, where we see the president directing the attorney general to investigate individuals by name for vague allegations of criminal behavior. That is what I think most people consider “weaponization,” as opposed to independence.

QK: It does sound very similar to “mob-like” tactics.

BM: It most certainly does. When I I first started writing this book about a year-and-a-half ago, I thought maybe it was a little out there to compare the president to a mob. But all that we’ve seen has only fulfilled my thesis that the tactics he uses are similar to the mob.

I think he learned them from Roy Cohn, the lawyer who represented Donald Trump and his father in the 1970’s, when they were sued by the Justice Department for race discrimination in housing. Roy Cohn was a lawyer for the mafia. He was a lawyer for Joseph McCarthy during the Red Scare. He learned that the best defense is a good offense. Turn the tables on your accusers, admit nothing, deny everything, and accuse them of things like Trump Derangement Syndrome or “lawfare” or “fake news” if they criticize you. All of that, I think, are tactics he learned from Roy Cohn, who learned it from the mob.

President Trump has repeatedly said the U.S. Justice Department has been “weaponized” against him.

But one former Justice official argues the president is not just weaponizing the government but running it like an organized crime syndicate.

Author and law professor Barbara McQuade served as the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan from 2010 to 2017.

She successfully prosecuted former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick on corruption charges.

Now McQuade is out with a new book, “The Fix: Saving America from the Corruption of a Mob-Style Government.”

She says the book stems, in part, from what she found during the Kilpatrick trial.

The IndyCars and other racing machines have competed near Detroit’s Renaissance Center for several years now.

The chair of the Grand Prix, Bud Denker, is also in charge of a one-time race in the nation’s capital that required permission from President Trump.

Denker says organizers of the Detroit Grand Prix are thrilled with how the event is progressing.

Hear more in Quinn Klinfelters interview. 

WDET is examining Highland Park as part of our Crossing the Lines series. 

Hidden within the history of the Detroit enclave are the remnants of a secret society based on racism and murder. 

It was exposed during a trial about a century ago that became a national sensation.  

And then it seemingly vanished. 

This is the story of the Black Legion.  

More vicious than the Klan 

 Across a driveway from the Highland Park Fire Department stands a boarded-up, multi-story office building. 

Author Tom Stanton gazes at the structure, one he says is filled with the echoes of powerful officials and mass killings. 

“The old city hall is gone, but this is an administrative building,” he said. “Over time, the fire department was here, the police department was here. It was also home to a court. All of those organizations would have had members in the Black Legion.” 

The Black Legion

It’s a vigilante group built on bigotry, crime and murder. 

And Stanton knows it well. 

His book, “Terror in the City of Champions,” follows the hate group’s movements during a time when Detroit sports teams were all winning titles. 

He notes the Black Legion was born in Lima, Ohio, from the fading ashes of a Ku Klux Klan the Legion’s founder felt was too tame. 

“There was a little bit of animosity because the guy who started the Black Legion had left the Klan. He didn’t view it as aggressive enough, the Klan, and he felt there needed to be an organization that was willing to do more,” Stanton said.  

It was the 1920s and 30s. Jobs were scarce. 

University of California Santa Cruz Professor Emerita Dana Frank examined those years. 

She says the era was ripe to create a ready market for Legion recruits. 

“Working class white men were looking for an answer and they’re looking for a scapegoat. And they turn to the Black Legion, an overtly fascist, white supremacist, anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant, anti-Semitic, anti-African American secret organization.” 

A haven for hate  

The white supremacist group spread across Ohio and Michigan. 

And Stanton says Highland Park became a hotbed of Black Legion activity. 

The enclave’s police chief, fire and police commissioners and a city councilman were all members. 

Even, Stanton says, Highland Park’s mayor at the time, Ray Markland. 

“The publisher of the “Highland Parker,” Art Kingsley, was targeted by the Black Legion because he kept ripping into Mayor Markland. One of the gunmen for the Black Legion moved into Highland Park with the idea of assassinating him. In the end, he didn’t. The gunman had infiltrated the American Legion and came to actually like what Kingsley stood for.” 

Others were not as fortunate. 

Legion members dressed in black robes emblazoned with skull-and crossbones symbols, their hoods topped by pirate hats bearing the Jolly Roger. 

Death was their motif. 

The Legion committed an estimated 50 murders in Michigan. 

Historian Dana Frank says the group lured new recruits to parties or barbeques, then suddenly forced them to join the Legion at gunpoint. 

“It was even more secret than the Klan had been,” Frank said. “A lot of these Legion people had been in the Klan. They would be wearing black outfits with gold trim and pirate hats. And it’s quite chilling. Who sewed that robe? Somebody’s wife or daughter or mother.” 

Author Tom Stanton adds that “recruits” joining to save their lives, while planning to avoid the hate group afterwards, were in for a shock. 

“Many of those 50 murders were actually killings of Legion members,” he said. “They had violated the code or didn’t come to meetings or in some ways were an affront to what the Black Legion supposedly stood for.” 

The Black Legion unravels 

Yet Stanton says what eventually exposed the Black Legion’s crimes was the killing of federal organizer Charles Poole. 

And his death stemmed from an age-old motive for murder, jealousy. 

“A local official of the Black Legion was upset that Poole was married to a woman that he had a crush on years before down south. He hatched this plan to spread the word at meetings that Poole had abused his wife. ‘What are we going to do about this?’” 

The answer was to pronounce a death sentence. 

“They got a couple of carloads of guys. Poole was taken out to Gulley Road, not too far from the Rouge auto plant, and assassinated.” 

Investigators initially didn’t realize the murder was connected to the Legion, so no law enforcement officials working with the group could squash the probe. 

They eventually traced the killing back to a hitman for the hate group. 

Stanton says the self-described “executioner” Dayton Dean, then committed the Legion’s cardinal sin. 

He confessed to the crime. And to the existence of the secret society he was part of. 

Stanton said, “Dayton Dean wasn’t the brightest guy and he was easily manipulated by investigators. They promised him cigars and special treatment in his prison cell. He loved the attention and he was willing to talk. He just couldn’t resist it.” 

Dean also unveiled the bloody secrets of the Black Legion in court. 

Historian Dana Frank says evidence later showed the Wayne County prosecutor in the case, Duncan McCrea, had been part of the Legion himself, though he vehemently denied it. 

“(McCrea) chose to prosecute in 1936. And that’s what really broke the story. The membership basically crawled back into the woodwork. That doesn’t mean that they changed their ideas. But the risk of being part of the Black Legion had become much greater.” 

Court cases capture a national audience 

There was a second trial involving the hate group months later, this time for the murder of Silas Coleman, who had been killed prior to Poole’s death. 

Coleman was shot by a Legion member who wanted to know “how it felt to kill a Black man.” 

The cases resulted in multiple convictions and national headlines. 

Within a year Hollywood had already made two movies based on the events. 

One featured a young Humphrey Bogart as a fictional version of the group’s hitman. 

In a desperate, terrified voice, Bogie said, “They’ll kill me for telling you. Them Black Legion guys don’t fool. I can’t get out. Nobody ever lived to get out of the Legion.” 

But author Tom Stanton says the trials raised concerns about who actually was in the hate group. 

“Wives and children were discovering that their fathers were members of the Black Legion. It was a secret society, even from your spouse. People were wondering, ‘Is my neighbor a member? Public officials?’ It was this great mystery, like the stuff of a radio serial at the time.”  

In fact, a popular radio show created an episode loosely based on the trials, where the renamed “White Legion” was brought down by the hero of the series. 

“I am the one they call The Shadow,” boomed a voice over the airwaves. “The White Legion is about to be exposed!”   

The secret society disappears 

But in real life, historian Dana Frank says FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover knew all about the Black Legion and its ties to the Klan. 

Yet no other members were ever charged. 

Frank says some researchers believe they know why. 

 “J. Edgar Hoover didn’t go after the Black Legion because Franklin D. Roosevelt, who was president at the time, didn’t want him to. There were Ku Klux Klan members and racists in Congress, particularly in the Senate, and the New Deal coalition was dependent on the votes of those Southern Democrats. And they would not want him to touch the Black Legion.”  

Frank says the FBI director argued the hate group had not violated federal law, despite Michigan officials’ assertion that the Legion’s activities had crossed state lines. 

“Hoover immediately shut down any investigation. He told all his agents not to do any further investigation of the Legion without his explicit permission,” Frank said. 

The U.S. was then hurtling towards World War II. 

And the Black Legion seemingly vanished from the national consciousness.  

Author Tom Stanton says those associated with the group had a stake in erasing it from history. 

“Most people didn’t want to tout their involvement. They wanted to bury it,” he said. “The black gowns were discovered in swamps. Some were burning them. It wasn’t something to be proud of.” 

Stanton says scrubbing the memory of the Legion extended through generations. 

“Decades on, you don’t want to be bragging about your great grandfather who was a member of a hate organization. And great grandpa probably didn’t want anybody to know about it either, other than the guys who were at the meeting.” 

After almost a century, historians agree few people recall the Black Legion’s atrocities or its role in Michigan and especially Highland Park. 

Ironically, the hate group that secretly inspired terror has regained one of its most cherished goals. 

Anonymity. 

Michigan Secretary of State Joceyln Benson says she’ll maintain a firewall between herself and elections officials overseeing this year’s race to become the next governor.

Some view the Democrat as her party’s heir apparent to term-limited Gretchen Whitmer.

But Benson says her bid for governor stems from a very personal place.

Interview edited for length and clarity.

Jocelyn Benson: I’m a mom of a nine-year-old little boy. And in 10 years he’s going to be deciding what he’s going to do with his life. I want Michigan to be the best place in the country for him or anyone else to choose to call home, to build a career, to build a family. So it is personal for me. I want to make sure Michigan is leading in every metric possible so that it truly is the best place in the nation to be a kid and to raise a kid and to retire. But in a lot of ways, we’re not that right now.

I think there’s a lot of reasons why. But it’s clear to me that the next governor of this state needs to be prepared on day one to streamline how government works. Drive down costs on everything from healthcare to housing to our energy costs. Build our economy so that we’re diversifying and creating more well-paying jobs. And be prepared to work with the federal government when required to accomplish those goals, but also be ready to stand up to even the president of the United States if he would try to interfere with our rights, freedoms, security, safety, privacy, or our democracy.

I’ve done all those things as secretary of state and I’m ready to do it as the next governor.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: You mentioned a few there, but in terms of the issues facing people in Michigan, what do you see as the most vital right now?

JB: Without a doubt, the fact that the cost of everything is going up while our wages are stagnant. It’s heartbreaking. I’m hearing stories all across the state. A mom in Muskegon who is struggling to cover health care costs for her family and choosing to go without health care for herself so that she could cover it for her kids. Impossible choices. Seniors in Flint who told me they have to literally decide in a given month whether to eat or pay for their medicine. One small business owner in Saginaw told me he wasn’t sure he’d be able to keep his doors open because of these chaotic tariffs that are causing him to potentially lose his inventory. That’s while rising energy costs from month to month make it hard for him to just pay to keep the lights on. So, it’s clear the anxiety, the challenges that so many Michiganders are facing right now, given that these rising costs are just out of control.

But we also need to grow our economy. About 60% of jobs in the state pay $60,000 or less. That’s impossible to sustain in an economy like this one. So we have to invest in the growth of new, well-paying jobs, diversify our economy and invest in clean energy, clean tech as well. Those are the jobs of tomorrow that can help us ensure that my kid and every one of our loved ones in this state can build their career here and get a well-paying job while being able to afford to live in the communities they want to live in, pay their bills and thrive.

QK: If you were elected, what could you do from the executive level as governor to actually address some of those issues?

JB: A lot of it I’ve done as secretary of state. I’m the CEO of one of our state’s largest agencies. And I’ve been able to transform it to ensure we’re cutting wasteful spending, while also reinvesting in our employees and our operations. We’ve eliminated wait times, we’ve made it easy and affordable to renew your license, renew your plates. If all of state government worked that well, it would be a lot easier and more cost effective to build homes, making them more affordable. We can reform our Department of Health and Human Services to streamline how people get access to the benefits they’re already entitled to, in a way that reduces costs and enables us to reduce premiums as well. We can ensure we’re reforming our economic development corporation and our agencies that focus on economic growth to invest in new and emerging economies as well as small business growth.

I’d like to make Michigan the small business capital of the nation. That requires it to be as easy as possible to start and grow your business. And a lot of that is just making government more efficient, while also sitting down with regional economic hubs to grow what’s working in Muskegon, what’s working in other parts of the state. So that when we see other local governments reducing costs in an effective way, we’re amplifying that work and expanding it statewide.

But it all starts and ends with a well-run state government, agencies that are actually showing up when you need it, getting out of the way when you don’t. Saving people time, saving people money. And a lot of that is tied up in public education as well. I say this also as a mom, I want to make sure we are partnering with our local governments to invest and turn around the defunding of schools that has really made it difficult for many teachers, educators and others to meet our needs. Take our schools from being at the bottom of far too many rankings to being at the top.

QK: You mentioned earlier about “standing up” to President Trump. Gov. Whitmer had a contentious relationship with him when the pandemic erupted. But then she also worked with him on issues like preventing invasive carp from getting into the Great Lakes. And it seemed to get some traction, where people like Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker did not from his contentious relationship with Trump. If you were elected, how do you see balancing working with the Trump administration and the president in particular?

JB: I’ll always work with anyone if it helps us drive down costs for Michiganders, take on polluters or other bad actors that are driving up costs. I’ll work with anyone who will help us create well-paying jobs in our state. I’ve been proud to do that as secretary of state, particularly when it comes to working with a Republican legislature, to get things done.

But I’ve also been very clear about standing unafraid up to anyone, whether they be wealthy or powerful, the most powerful person in the United States, if they try to interfere with the safety, the rights, the freedoms, the votes of our citizens. At the end of the day, my job is to stand up for the Michiganders who I will be elected to represent. And fight for their freedom, fight for their safety, fight for an economy that ensures everyone can thrive. And that does mean being willing to and ready to effectively stand up to anyone who would try to get in the way of that, enact tariffs that would drive up costs or potentially interfere with our elections.

QK: As secretary of state, you’re running in an election that you’re tasked with overseeing. Some of your opponents have complained it’s not fair that you can “referee your own game.” What’s your reaction to those kinds of comments?

JB: First, I agree we need to make sure we have very clear firewalls and delineations between partisan officials and election administrators. And we actually do have that in Michigan. Our elections are run at the local level by 1,500 clerks and 83 county clerks, and then we have our non-partisan Bureau of Elections. But in addition to that, I think it’s important to note that candidates who have come before me, not just in Michigan but in many other states, have also run for office while serving as secretary of state. So what I’m doing is no different. But what I am doing differently this time is making sure we are building that firewall so we are acting in a way that’s transparent, leading with integrity and actually becoming a model for how to ensure state’s chief election officers are continuing to run for office, if that presents itself, while ensuring the integrity of elections and operations.

QK: You’re running in a gubernatorial election now that’s a little bit different than ones in the past. You have someone who could be a viable independent candidate, the former mayor of Detroit Mike Duggan, who was a well-known Democrat for a long, long time until recently. There are some political pundits that say they worry that’s going to hurt the Benson campaign, that Duggan would pull Democrat votes away from you. Do you have concerns about that?

JB: I’m not a pundit so I can’t really prognosticate on all those pieces. But what I can say is I do think the choice that’s going to be facing voters this fall, what they need to be looking at as they elect the next governor of the state, is the question of who does the governor actually work for? Do you work for the people? Do you work for corporate interests? Do you work for Donald Trump? Because I want every citizen in Michigan to know, no matter what side of the political aisle they may be on, that I work for them, that I will stand up for them. Then when I’m faced with a choice, the voices in my head, the focus of my heart will be “what do the people of Michigan need? Not my highest corporate funder, not the president of the United States. What do the people of Michigan need from me?

In the early 20^th Century Ford and Chrysler operated extensive facilities in Highland Park, helping its population grow to more than 50,000 people by the 1930s.

But both car companies moved away from Highland Park decades ago. Now its population hovers between 8,000 and 9,000.

Automotive historian Robert Tate writes for the website MotorCities and worked with the Chrysler museum.

Tate says Ford mass-produced its Model T in Highland Park, creating the moving assembly line that forever changed manufacturing.

Tate says even the Highland Park plant’s architecture was inspiring.

The following interview edited for length and clarity.

Robert Tate: The building was designed by Albert Kahn. He and Henry Ford had a great relationship. The doors opened January 1, 1910, on Woodward Ave. It became one of the largest factories in the world because they manufactured the Model T. The factory was about 865 feet and ran parallel to Woodward Ave. This was one of the most historic sites in the United States and the world, to be honest with you. And it also attracted a lot of people from European countries and other cultures to finally get a job and become an American citizen. So, the factory itself created a lot of things for a lot of people, not just the Model T, but for people to live a good life.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: Why did it attract people from Europe and elsewhere?

RT: Henry Ford began using the moving assembly line. And in 1914, the average wage was $2.30. But he raised it to $5 a day. That attracted a lot of people from all over the world to come here, including my ancestors. My family came here from the South to get jobs like that. The only problem was that the hours were long, 10 hours a day and then five hours on Saturday for the workers. And that created a lot of health issues for a lot of individuals because they were so regimented in putting together parts at the assembly plant.

QK: How much did the Ford factory actually mean to the city of Highland Park?

RT: It meant a lot because you’re talking about taxes and people coming in. The Highland Park Hotel was there, they had a racetrack as well at the time. That generated a lot of income.

QK: Why did Ford move it out eventually? Why did it leave Highland Park?

RT: My belief is that things began to change when the 1927 Ford came out and the company had the model assembled at the River Rouge plant. The Model T was produced from 1908 to 1926. And then Ford introduced the 1927 Model A, which was very, very popular. Ford sold millions of those cars. Also, and people don’t like to talk about this, unfortunately there were a lot of workers who got killed at the Highland Park plant. Because at that time they didn’t have things enclosed for safety. So, a lot of men, unfortunately, lost their lives. But I think that Ford wanted to get out of Highland Park and move it closer to River Rouge because you had more goods coming into that particular facility for models to be assembled.

QK: In regards to Chrysler, how did they get into Highland Park?

RT: It was their major headquarters until they moved to a larger facility in Auburn Hills. I used to hear a lot of Chrysler employees say that the Chrysler Highland Park site was just too archaic.

QK: I’ve heard some experts say that when Chrysler in particular moved out, it truly devastated Highland Park’s economy. And that the enclave has struggled to really replace that revenue since. Do you agree?

RT: Yes, I do. The same thing happened with American Motors when they moved out. Unfortunately, the neighborhoods and the communities suffered when both of those companies moved to Auburn Hills. The neighborhoods were devastated.

QK: There must have been a lot of tax revenue and other money coming into Highland Park that suddenly vanished. But you say that from what you heard people who were working for Chrysler were happy to vacate and to go to a newer facility.

RT: My God, yes. I would hear that all the time because it was a new facility. It created a new way of thinking, using the new things that they were not accustomed to having at Highland Park. I remember walking through the hallways at the Chrysler facility in Auburn Hills and it was a showcase. It was a very beautiful building.

QK: After all that has happened since Ford opened the Model T assembly line, when you look at Highland Park now, what do you think is the legacy that automakers have left there?

RT: As a historian, I look at the 1950’s in Highland Park. Virgil Exner, who was the chief designer in charge, came out with the 1957 Chrysler line. And I’m a big fan of the 1957 Chrysler line. So, whenever I think of Highland Park, I think of the good days that launched a lot of cars that were popular, the 1964 Dodge, the 1957 Chrysler. Those cars changed America.

Read more Crossing the Lines: Highland Park

There’s an unusual twist in this year’s race to become Michigan’s next governor.

Longtime Democrat and former Detroit mayor Mike Duggan is running for the state’s top job as an independent.

Duggan says taking the long view of what Detroit needs in the future helped turn his eyes to Lansing.

Editor’s note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Mike Duggan: I was born in Detroit and the city I grew up in was spectacular. You could get a good-paying job in the auto plants, the neighborhoods were beautiful, the shopping was great. And in the course of my life, everything that we knew was taken away from us. The auto plants moved out, the stores moved out, the banks moved out, the movie theaters moved out. I ran for mayor because I felt like the federal government, the state government and other people had turned their back on Detroit for too many years. And I felt like if we pulled together, we could change the trajectory. And you saw what happened, with all of the factories that came back, the rebuilding of the riverfront, the violence going way down. When the population numbers came in last year and we grew by 7,000 people and led the state of Michigan in population growth, I felt like I’d done what I had set out to do. So really the next question was, do I go back to the private sector or do I try something else in the public sector?

Quinn, you know the biggest problem in Detroit is the public school system. And when we had 7,000 people move back, we weren’t having families with school-aged children. And I think (Superintendent) Dr. Vitti and the school board are doing a good job with the resources they’ve got. But the state has not supported public education. And 60% of all the children in Michigan, not just Detroit, do not read at third grade level. You’re stealing the futures of these children by the time they’re nine and 10 years old if they can’t read. That’s certainly critical.

There is nowhere you go in the state where people are not stressed by the cost of housing. Young people are being forced out of the state because they can’t afford their first home, whether it’s an apartment or a house. There’s no easy way to say this, but the jobs of the future are going to Ohio and Indiana. Our biggest export is no longer our cars, it’s our young people. People said you can’t solve the affordable housing problem. In Detroit, we built 6,000 units. And I understand how we did it. We didn’t do it with a lot of state help. But if you both reduce the cost and put in some subsidy, the problem is solvable, as we’ve proven.

Quinn Klinefelter: When you do go around the state, is what you’ve done in Detroit translating to people outside the metro area? Do they say, “What’s some Detroit guy doing, coming in here trying to tell us what to do?”

MD: It’s so interesting. I’m spending a lot of time on farms. I’ll have 25 farmers who’ll say, “What does the mayor of Detroit know about us? We’ve been ignored. We’ve been forgotten. Our costs for our fertilizer is going up. We don’t have access to markets. Nobody in Lansing cares about us. What does the mayor of Detroit know about us?” I said, “Gee, let me see. What does the mayor of Detroit know about representing people who feel like they’ve been ignored and forgotten? I’d like to take you back to Detroit and introduce you to a mom who is raising two kids on a block with four abandoned houses, no streetlights, parks completely overgrown with grass. The ambulances and police didn’t show up. I didn’t make excuses. We went to work and solved the problem. Let’s talk about your problem.”

And you should see their shoulders actually relax. They think, “Maybe we have a lot more in common with Detroit than we ever thought.” I’m talking to farmers who can’t get permits from EGLE to build a new irrigation system because they don’t have inspectors. And I tell them about the housing projects that got delayed because EGLE couldn’t get inspectors to it. Before long, it turns out there’s a lot more in common in this state than we think.

QK: I know it’s all politics, but you were really a standard bearer for the Democrats for a long time. Now you’re running as an independent. You’re technically the political enemy. They’re running billboards that you’re spreading contaminated dirt all over the city. What’s it been like for you facing that after being for so long a face of that party?

MD: You said it right. They treat me like I’m the enemy. And I think that’s why people are so angry at the two parties. You look at the polling nationally and Gallup says this year 27% of Americans consider themselves a Democrat, an all-time low. And 27% Republican, an all-time low. And 45% independent, an all-time high. It’s because the two parties don’t tell you what they’re going to do, they’re just so toxic tearing each other down. And the Democrats have done me enormous good. Because as soon as I announced I was an independent, they didn’t say he has a bad record on crime or housing or jobs. They say he’s corrupt, he’s MAGA, he’s poison dirt, he’s whatever. It’s all this same stuff. And I’m just saying to people if you think the two parties are working for you, you’re gonna have a Republican and Democratic candidate. But if you think this state is heading in the wrong direction, I’m gonna give you a third choice.

QK: The political pundits will always say that an independent doesn’t have any chance, you’re just gonna waste your vote if you go for them. What’s your response to those kinds of comments?

MD: Yeah, those were the same political pundits that said in 2013 a white guy can’t get elected mayor in an 83% black city. You know how many times I heard that? But it’s different when you sit down with people and talk to them about their situations and how we solve them. I’m doing seven, eight town halls a week all over the state, just the same way I campaigned for mayor. And the people who are showing up, we’re not doing stuff where you rail on Trump, you rail on Whitmer, you talk about the evil folks on the other side. These folks want to talk about what’s going on with the data centers and why aren’t we being protected so that we know if they’re coming here that our rates won’t go up and that our water won’t be damaged. We’re talking through solutions. And it’s Republicans and Democrats sitting in rooms together.

Quinn, this is the most fun thing. We’re in a primary time where the Republicans are going to the Republican clubs. They’re going to the Muskegon Republican club or the Grand Rapids Republican club. The Democrats are going to the Democratic clubs, they’re at the Westland Democratic club or the Alpena Democratic club. I don’t have any clubs. So I’m having open town halls in community centers and restaurants and churches across the state where Republicans and Democrats both come and listen. And they invariably take my petition forms, head out the door and say, “I want to have a third choice.”

This is the thing I found out. No matter where you go in the state, people are fed up with the two parties. It was pretty interesting, last August 200 elected officials endorsed me at a big event at the Michigan Central train station, about 100 Democrats and 100 Republicans. And the Democratic Party chair, Curtis Hertel, was so angry he announced he was punishing the hundred Democrats who stood up with me, shutting off their access to voter lists. You have advantages and disadvantages, but I’m not spending time whining about it. I’m gonna go get far more than the number of signatures needed to get on the ballot. I have to put in 30,000 signatures by July 15th. We’re doing well, we’re gonna make the signature threshold. There’s no doubt about it, the parties have stacked the rules against an independent, which is why you don’t see them. But I’ve dealt with odds before.