President Biden personally thanked more than 100 members of the U.S. government earlier this month for their help in negotiating the recent prisoner exchange with Russia.

The massive deal brought Michigan native Paul Whelan back to the U.S after being held in Russia since the end of 2018 on charges of espionage that both he and federal officials say are bogus.

Some experts believe the exchange could set a model for how nations engage in such so-called “hostage diplomacy” in the future.

Northwestern University Assistant Professor Danielle Gilbert works with the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) on matters concerning wrongful detentions.

She says duplicating the kind of deal that gained Whelan’s release will not be easy.

Listen: Why the deal that freed Whelan, Gershkovich may be hard to duplicate

The following interview has been edited for clarity and length.

Danielle Gilbert: These are extremely difficult negotiations. Not only are we talking about some of the fiercest adversaries that have to come to the table to come to an agreement in terms of the United States and Russia; but also the challenge of bringing together all of these other parties, getting other governments to agree to put their own prisoners on the line to participate in this complex multi-party swap. This was extremely advanced negotiation that took place at the highest levels of government over the course of quite some time. And that all of it was held as such a tight secret until the actual release was also pretty spectacular.

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: There are reports that Germany wanted Putin opponent Alexei Navalny as part of any deal that would include Whelan in exchange for a Russian assassin that was held by Germany. And then Navalny passed away a few days after the deal was supposedly struck. Yet it seemed Germany’s willingness to make a deal continued and that seemed to open the pathway to the eventual exchange. Does it surprise you that Germany would actually, finally partake in such an effort?

DG: Vladimir Putin and his government continually pushed for the release of Vadim Krasikov, the FSB assassin who was imprisoned in Germany for murder. But the United States government didn’t have the power to release Krasikov, that was something that was only up to Chancellor Scholz and the government of Germany. So that took some really difficult conversations behind the scenes. President Biden was drawing on the friendship and the alliance with Germany, speaking to Chancellor Scholz and representatives at the highest level of the German government. And not only about the importance of their alliance, their partnership and friendship with the U.S. and opposition to what Russia was doing in this particular case, but also ensuring that the ultimate deal — the prisoner swap — included Russian dissidents, political opponents to Vladimir Putin. That those people would be released from detention and they’d be able to come to Germany. Countries like the United States and its Western democratic partners and allies are being targeted by autocratic states like Russia.

QK: Beyond the number of nations involved in the swap, the sheer multitude of prisoners involved in the exchange seems to be far different from what one would normally think of in a hostage deal, which is sterotypically a one-for-one prisoner swap. Do you think similar hostage deals that could happen in the future are also likely going to have to include many, many more countries and in effect “enlarge the pie” of what is being offered in any exchange?

DG: It’s a great question. It remains to be seen. I think in past prisoner swaps with Russia, we really have seen that one-for-one dynamic. Russia wrongfully detains an American and they demand the specific release of a Russian who was arrested in the United States. And those deals, while they might be controversial, are about as straightforward as they can get in terms of prisoner swaps. This one (involving Whelan) was extremely complicated because of the number of countries involved, the number of prisoners, the complicated choreography. In an ideal world, the countries that are frequent targets of this kind of attack are going to start really working together to deter the practice going forward.

Read more: Family of Novi man released from Russian prison say they can finally exhale

QK: One of the criticisms of the exchange has been that it rewards Russia and by extension any other country that would follow suit for taking Americans hostage that the government believes could be used as trade bait. How do you think the U.S. can combat that kind of approach?

DG: That requires coordination among allies, drawing on the tools of the international system. How can they punish a state like Russia for engaging in this practice? There might be sanctions on hostage takers, it might result in prosecution or other means of drawing on a country’s own legal system. And thinking about ways to exclude Russia from the things that it might enjoy in the international system.

QK: The U.S. is already involved in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. There’s few other examples that would be testier for governments to be dealing with than an ongoing war. And yet this deal seems to have achieved Russia’s goals. So in the future would actions like sanctions be sufficient? Is there something else that countries can do to try to deter this type of hostage-taking?

DG: That’s the real million dollar question. It’s the question that gets me up in the morning. Government officials in the United States and a lot of other frequent targets, countries like Canada, the U.K. and Australia are putting their best minds to work to figure this out. The commission that I’m a part of at CSIS is also working on this question and hoping to make recommendations to the next U.S. presidential administration on how they might think about deterring this practice going forward. One big part of it has to do with prevention. Let’s say the U.S. government can’t put more sanctions on these countries that are already so heavily sanctioned. Well, what can the U.S. government do to prevent its citizens from traveling to places like Russia in the first place? How can they increase education? How can they engage the private sector that requires employees to travel to make sure that Americans who are going to these places are aware of the risks that they might be facing, understand other countries’ laws and hopefully stop traveling to places that the U.S. government strongly urges Americans not to visit, like Russia.

Use the media player above to listen to the interview with Danielle Gilbert.

A Michigan family is celebrating after one of their own was released from a Russian prison last week, following more than five years of detainment.

Novi native Paul Whelan was arrested in Russia in 2018. 

He had been serving a 16-year prison sentence for espionage, charges both he and the U.S. government say are bogus. 

Whelan was part of a multi-national prisoner exchange with Russia involving roughly two dozen people. 

He was the first person to disembark from the plane that brought the detainees back to the U.S., where Whelan was greeted in-person by President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. 

Whelan’s twin brother, David Whelan, told WDET in a phone interview that their family can finally exhale again. 

Listen: Brother of Novi man released from Russian prison says family can ‘finally exhale’

The following interview was edited for clarity.

David Whelan: We’re obviously overjoyed that he is home. There was messaging from the U.S. government sort of letting us know that something might happen, that it could be positive news. But it also could be news that we wouldn’t be happy about. So, I think up until I read the White House statement after Paul had gotten on a plane, that the detainees were on their way home, I didn’t really believe that it had happened. 

Quinn Klinefelter, WDET News: And you had no idea up until that point that this was going to go through? 

DW: Right. I think we were starting to sense something in the last few days. This didn’t come from the U.S. government. I’ve been watching Russian media for over five years. And you can see things starting to happen. We saw that it was becoming a very large, complicated sort of an activity or event. And I think the more complexity you have, the more likelihood that there is something that could fall apart or that someone might get cold feet, that something doesn’t work the way you expect. Particularly since Paul had not come home twice already, he had been left behind when Trevor Reed came home and he was left behind when Brittney Griner came home. And that’s not to suggest that he could have come home. I’m just saying that he didn’t come home. So I think we were all a little bit cautious about getting our hopes up too high that he would come home the third time.  

QK: Over the last few months you said it seemed like there was little hope that Paul could be freed, that the U.S. had kind of pulled all the levers it possibly could to try to make that happen without anything working. Do you have any sense as to what actually changed now so this has been able to come to fruition? 

DW: I think that this was a very slow-bubbling pot. And it has probably been on a burner for 12 months, 18 months. We have seen some of the names that were exchanged in the media during that time. So I think it’s possible that this thing has just been something that took a long time, a lot of relationship-building, a lot of persuasion. It might have taken changes in dynamics in other countries with elections or with political changes. So I think it was just one of those things that until it was ready, it wasn’t ready, when finally certain things clicked into place. And that was part of our concern, that if those things became un-clicked, that it might fall apart. I think that’s the difficulty for any families in this sort of situation. There are so many unknowns and all of them are out of your control. All of these things that occurred with this exchange, when you consider the number of Russian political prisoners who were coming out, some of whom may not have wanted to come out of Russia, as well as the others who were being exchanged, you start to realize how complicated these things can get. 

QK: So much has changed, politically and otherwise, since Paul was first taken into custody. Does he have to kind of rebuild his life from scratch now back in the U.S.? 

DW: In a sense, yes. And in a sense, no. Fortunately our other brother has done a remarkable job of maintaining Paul’s financial situation, dealing with taxes, dealing with loans or other debts that he had, making sure money was in his bank account, that sort of thing. I think that Paul is going to have to come back and rebuild a lot of his life. He’s going to have to find a place to live, he’ll need to get a job. He’ll have to deal with all the relationships, some people who were friendly to him when he was in America but not when he was in a Russian prison. But at least he will have a financial starting point that I think a lot of prisoners when they come back find that they don’t have. We’ve read about prisoners in Russia who are sentenced to treason, many years of detention, then someone gets a power of attorney and wipes out their bank accounts.  

And I think even when I read the White House statement, I didn’t 100% believe it. I almost needed to see a proof-of-life photo of Paul in a place that I know is in America, for me to really, truly believe it. Obviously, to see him in person would be that too. But you get to the point where you resign yourself to the fact that there is this uncertainty, a solution may or may not appear at any time. And frankly, if the news had been bad, I really don’t know what the U.S. government would have done next. Because this really was cleaning out every cupboard and cleaning out every coin under the cushion. I don’t think that there any more concessions the U.S. could have made. So, I think for the next person who gets arrested by Russia, it’s gonna be very, very difficult. 

QK: What advice might you have for U.S. officials who are dealing with families of hostages such as Paul? 

DW: The U.S. government, frankly, has to trust the family and I think that’s been one of the difficulties with our experiences. Sometimes they’re willing to trust us with a little bit of information. And then sometimes they see us as, maybe not the enemy, but certainly not as an ally. I think we really experienced it in the last three or four months of Paul’s detention. We noticed that the National Security Advisors’ office had really just thrown up walls and the information flow that we had been accustomed to — it wasn’t top secret stuff, it was just information that helped us get situational awareness — had suddenly stopped. I think part of it is because internally the U.S. government has concerns about leaks and different departments feel differently about how much to share with media. So I think we were impacted by decisions that were made by certain departments like the National Security Advisors’ office. 

QK: To bring it back to Paul, do you have any sense of what your family is planning when he actually returns to your home? Is there gonna be a big party, or will you kind of try to ease him back into life in the U.S.? 

DW: No, not really. We’ve discussed some possible outcomes. I think we are all very much focused on Paul having agency at this point and making his own choices about where he lives, who he interacts with, just building relationships. He was betrayed by a very close friend in Russia five-and-a-half years ago and has seen some of his other friends and colleagues peel-off over time. And I think that it will be a while for him to build trust and relationships and rapport again, even with family members.

WASHINGTON (AP) — A massive prisoner swap involving the United States and Russia was underway Thursday, a person familiar with the matter said.

The person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because details had not been publicly disclosed, did not specify who is included in the deal. But Americans considered by the U.S. to be wrongfully detained in Russia include Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan, a corporate security executive from Michigan. Both had been convicted of espionage charges that the U.S. government considered baseless.

In a statement posted online, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty President and CEO Stephen Capus acknowledged media reports that a journalist working for the broadcaster, Alsu Kurmasheva, would be released as part of the deal.

Capus said the broadcaster welcomed ’’news of Alsu’s imminent release and are grateful to the American government and all who worked tirelessly to end her unjust treatment by Russia.” Kurmasheva, a dual U.S.-Russian citizen, was convicted in July of spreading false information about the Russian military, accusations her family and employer have rejected.

The deal would be the latest exchange in the last two years between Washington and Moscow, including a December 2022 trade that brought WNBA star Brittney Griner back to the U.S. in exchange for notorious arms trafficker Viktor Bout and a swap earlier that year of Marine veteran Trevor Reed for Konstantin Yaroshenko, a Russian pilot convicted in a drug trafficking conspiracy.

President Joe Biden placed securing the release of Americans held wrongfully overseas at the top of his foreign policy agenda for the six months before he leaves office. In his Oval Office address to the American people discussing his recent decision to drop his bid for a second term, the Democrat said, “We’re also working around the clock to bring home Americans being unjustly detained all around the world.”

Russia has long been interested in getting back Vadim Krasikov, who was convicted in Germany in 2021 of killing a former Chechen rebel in a Berlin park two years earlier, apparently on the orders of Moscow’s security services.

Speculation had mounted for weeks that a swap was near because of a confluence of unusual developments, including a startingly quick trial and conviction for Gershkovich that Washington regarded as a sham. He was sentenced to 16 years in a maximum-security prison.

Also in recent days, several other figures imprisoned in Russia for speaking out against the war in Ukraine or over their work with the late Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny were moved from prison to unknown locations.

Gershkovich was arrested March 29, 2023, while on a reporting trip to the Ural Mountains city of Yekaterinburg. Authorities claimed, without offering any evidence, that he was gathering secret information for the U.S. The son of Soviet emigres who settled in New Jersey, he moved to the country in 2017 to work for The Moscow Times newspaper before being hired by the Journal in 2022.

He had more than a dozen closed hearings over the extension of his pretrial detention or appeals for his release. He was taken to the courthouse in handcuffs and appeared in the defendants’ cage, often smiling for the many cameras.

U.S. officials last year made an offer to swap Gershkovich that was rejected by Russia, and Biden’s Democratic administration had not made public any possible deals since then.

Gershkovich was designated as wrongfully detained, as was Whelan, who was detained in December 2018 after traveling to Russia for a wedding. Whelan was convicted of espionage charges, which he and the U.S. have also said were false and trumped up, and he is serving a 16-year prison sentence.

Whelan had been excluded from prior high-profile deals involving Russia, including those involving Reed and Griner.

Story by Eric Tucker, Dasha Litvinova and Matthew Lee, Associated Press. Associated Press writer Zeke Miller contributed to this report.