As Gov. Gretchen Whitmer wraps up two terms in office, Michigan voters will elect a new governor this fall. As part of our election coverage, Michigan Public is bringing you interviews with the candidates for Michigan’s top office.

Doug Campbell is running as the Green Party’s candidate for Michigan governor. Campbell is a retired engineer and works as a substitute teacher. He’s run for Congress in four prior elections, and this is his third run for Governor. Campbell sat down with Stateside host April Baer to discuss his plans for the state if elected.

April Baer: Will you tell us a little bit more about what brought you back to the ballot this year? 

Doug Campbell: Much like being in the Army Reserves, I was drafted by my party. Last term, I had announced my retirement from politics, and there was a popular consensus that that was premature, and that I should run one more time.

AB: Is there anything that you would like people to know about what the Green Party represents in this consensus model? 

DC: There are two things that distinguish us from the other parties in the United States. First of all, the Green Party has parties in 76 countries throughout the globe and 11 affiliate organizations in countries that have not yet established themselves as a political party on the ballot.

The other thing is that Green Party candidates reject soft money, dark money, corporate contributions, 527(C) money, and earmarked money. We have unilaterally implemented the campaign finance reform that almost everybody says they want to see happening. But the paradox is that while we have implemented it, and almost everybody says that that's what they want in public offices, almost everybody reverts to the evil of two lessers when they're actually in the ballot booth.

AB: Let's talk a little bit about your platform. What is one thing that you would like to do if elected governor that would relieve the financial pressures on Michiganders from the costs that are rising, both nationally and internationally? 

DC: Okay. A lot of people are going to say they have a new proposal, but I have an old one. Let me read it to you.

“We stand for a living wage. Wages are subnormal if they fail to provide a living for those who devote their time and energy to industrial occupations. The monetary equivalent of a living wage varies according to local conditions, but it must include enough to secure the elements of a normal standard of living – a standard high enough to make morality possible, to provide for education and recreation, to care for immature members of family, to maintain the family during periods of sickness, and to permit a reasonable saving for old age.”

Now, I didn't write that. President Roosevelt wrote that and delivered it in 1912 in his campaign speech in Chicago. And I encourage everybody else to read the entire speech. It's online in any number of historical websites. We need to finish the job that he started. We need to implement a living wage. We need to not only raise the minimum wage, but we need to index it for inflation. The federal minimum wage, which admittedly the governor has very little authority over, hasn't been adjusted since 2009. It's still at $7.25 an hour. In 2009, you could buy lunch with an hour's wage. Today, you can't even buy a sandwich.

I think this is deliberate. That inflation is the insidious theft from the working class. So I recommend that we index it and make the federal minimum wage one ten-thousandth of the total compensation of the highest paid member of Congress.

AB: This is a tenet that you've run on many times before, and talked about through several of the campaigns that you've run. At this moment, the highest paid member of Congress is the House speaker, who's currently paid $223,500. So if we were to follow your logic, one ten-thousandth of that would be $22.35 an hour.

DC: Yes!

AB: That may get a lot of people's attention. It would raise the minimum wage significantly – higher than any other state. How do you propose Michigan's employers would bear that cost?

DC: I imagine Michigan's employers would whine and kvetch about it a lot. But at the end of the day, every time the minimum wage has been raised, either federally or locally, prosperity has gone up. Employment has gone up because employment is based on demand. And if people don't have any income, they don't have any demand. And that is a drag on the overall economy.

AB: Many of the businesses that employ minimum wage workers historically, our service industry businesses, our grocery stores, and others, tend to be very low margin. And anyone who has spent some time in these businesses lately can tell you that their staffing is already pretty stretched at this point. You say you think that there's more juice to be squeezed? 

DC: Absolutely. We're now in a situation where the 5% highest net wealth individuals own more than half of everything in the country. We need to stop issuing tax cuts for the rich. The period from roughly 1942 to 1982 was America's most productive and most prosperous era. We need to go back to some of the principles that were implemented during that time which caused that prosperity, including high marginal tax rates on high-income earners. At the time, it was millionaires. Of course, millionaire doesn't mean what it used to. Millionaire today just means you might be able to retire without resorting to eating dog food.

But we now have the world's first trillionaire, and we need to remedy the wealth and income inequity in our society. And the most direct approach is through taxation and redistribution.

AB: It strikes me that the top-tier earners may not be associated with those businesses that do employ workers at minimum wage. Would you tell us a little bit about the tax structure that you envision?

DC: Pretty much the very same tax structure that we had during the Eisenhower administration. Ultrawealthy individuals were taxed at, if I recall correctly, 86% after deductions. Corporations were taxed on profits, not on revenue. We've swallowed the propaganda that somehow not taxing people who are taking a significant amount of America's wealth is somehow going to lead to prosperity for all the rest of us, and it's just not the case.

The other thing we need to do is acknowledge that jobs are going away. Automation is a fact of life, and we need to adapt our society to that fact. There's an excellent documentary and kind of a look into the future [called] “Humans Need Not Apply.” Starting with how horses are no longer employed, except in the most niche markets, and likewise, in the near future, humans are not going to be employed. So we need to restructure our society so that the productivity reaches everybody. We need to start with raising the bottom. That's the minimum wage. And when minimum wage jobs go away, it needs to be replaced with a universal basic income.

AB: Michiganders have been pushing back on the development of data centers in their communities. How do you see the governor of Michigan addressing this backlash? Tell us about what you would do if elected. 

DC: We need to impose a moratorium on any new data center that's larger than one acre and one megawatt. The next thing we need to do is ask, “What is the purpose of this data center?” One hundred years ago, when we granted corporate charters, we asked, “What will this corporation do? How will the public benefit from this entity being incorporated?” We need to start with that.

We also need to prepare ourselves for the bursting of the large language model bubble. In the 90s, we saw the “dot-com” bubble burst, and about 10% of what was hyped became reality. The fundamental difference there is that the dot-com bubble didn't require a lot of investment in infrastructure.

For-profit utilities are more than happy to expand their transmission and distribution to your facility if you're going to pay for the electricity that you consume. In the past, they've typically amortized this construction over a 50-year period. In the case of a data center, they need to amortize it over a five-year period in anticipation of the bubble bursting. Otherwise, we're going to be left with a tremendous amount of physical infrastructure going unused, and you and I are going to be paying for it through our utility rates.

AB: What do you see as the greatest threat to democracy right now?

DC: Ignorance and empathy. A lot of people don't understand, and a lot of people don't care. It's somewhat unusual for elections to have more than a 50% turnout. People have quit participating. They have swallowed the propaganda that this is the best that we can expect.

I’m not going to criticize most of the people who have quit voting as lazy. I recognize that these folks are disillusioned. We need to liberate ourselves from the idea that there are two parties. There are six candidates for governor. I think there are seven parties on the Michigan ballot in total. We just need to let go of the old ideas. We need to let go of the idea that you are a Democrat or you are a Republican by birthright, and that is a choice that you can make. And I'm here to offer people a real alternative.

I'm not bought and paid for by corporations. There are one or two other candidates in the race who are claiming the same thing, and I wish them the best, and I hope that they will be able to actually follow through on being elected with one of the major parties. They will encounter incredible pressure to either assimilate or or give up.

____________

Editor's note: Quotes in this article have been lightly edited for length and clarity. You can play the full audio of this interview near the top of this page.

Today on Stateside, we chat with Jocelyn Benson, Democratic candidate for Governor of Michigan.

Stateside producers have made multiple attempts to reach out to John James, the Republican candidate for Michigan's Governor, but have not heard back from his campaign. The offer remains open and we are happy to schedule an interview with him later this week if he accepts.

Plus, we talk with Anna Ansari, author of Silk Roads: A Flavor Odyssey with Recipes from Baku to Beijing and with Molly Mitchell, the founder of Rose's in Detroit — a diner recently lauded by the New York Times as one of 50 favorite restaurants in America. We'll hear what these two chefs are planning to cook up this week for a collaborative dining experience.

Finally, we bring our latest episode of On Hand exploring why Michigan's vote can be hard to predict. We hear from David Dulio, a political science professor at Oakland University, on what we to keep in mind about Michigan's swing identity in national politics.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Jocelyn Benson, Democratic candidate for Governor of Michigan
• Anna Ansari, author of Silk Roads: A Flavor Odyssey with Recipes from Baku to Beijing
• Molly Mitchell, founder of Rose's in Detroit
• David Dulio, political science professor at Oakland University in Oakland County
  

Michigan’s top political office is up for grabs in the 2026 midterm election. Current Governor Gretchen Whitmer (D) is term-limited and five candidates are on the ballot to replace her.

The person who wins this race has an opportunity to direct the state’s response to many issues Michiganders face today. They’ll work with (or against) the state Legislature to pass laws or budgets, hire state agency leaders to carry out their goals, and play a key role in the state’s relationship with federal leaders.

Michigan Public requested interviews with each candidate. Only one, Republican John James, did not accept. Here’s what each had to say about how they would address issues Michiganders face.

Like the rest of the country (and many parts of the world), Michiganders are feeling the squeeze as prices rise and wages fail to keep up.

The rising prices partly stem from national and international issues that may be out of the governor’s control. But there are still things a governor can do to ease the difficulties people face in making ends meet.

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Data centers have quickly become a big deal in Michigan. People, companies and officials across the state have been embroiled in bitter debates over where they get built.

The next governor will likely have the opportunity to dramatically change Michigan's approach — or continue the current path.

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Across a number of polls, Michiganders say that threats to democracy are among the issues top of mind when they vote. As Michigan’s chief executive, the next governor will have an opportunity to decide which threats to highlight — and how they’ll work with other elected officials to address those threats, real or imagined.

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As Gov. Gretchen Whitmer wraps up two terms in office, Michigan voters will elect a new governor in just a few weeks. As part of our election coverage, Michigan Public is bringing you interviews with the candidates for Michigan’s top office.

Jocelyn Benson is a name known to many Michiganders. She has been the Secretary of State since 2019. And she is running as the Democratic candidate for Michigan governor. She sat down with Stateside host April Baer to discuss her plans for the state if elected.

April Baer: Will you tell us why running for governor seemed like the next step for you?

Jocelyn Benson: Well, you know, I'm a mom of a 10-year-old little boy, and it's not lost on me that everything we do over the next eight years will define my kid's future. And it will define the future of our loved ones all across the state. And in a moment where we need leaders who know how to run government well, who will get things done to drive down costs, to increase well-paying jobs, and to protect our rights, freedoms, democracy and safety everywhere we go.

That is the job I've done as Secretary of State, and it's a job I'm ready to do as governor. And I really do think we're on the precipice of a extraordinary moment, an extraordinary choice of which way we're going to go here in Michigan. I'm committed to making sure our schools are among the best in the nation, that we have well-paying jobs in this state, that our health care costs are going down, not up. And I'm, you know, running against someone who has raised health care costs while in Congress. So I'm very focused on making sure citizens know that choice, that I will fight for them, I will work for them, and I will work with anyone to get things done for them.

AB: What would you want voters to know about what you've accomplished as Secretary of State?

JB: You know, I'm really proud of Secretary of State. We've seen our elections go from being ranked 30th in the nation to number two nationwide in safety and security and accessibility. We've had back to back to back the highest turnout elections in our state's history. But also, I'm proud to have taken the Department of State, the Department of Motor Vehicles, and turned it around. We transformed what is oftentimes the poster child of government bureaucracy of everything that's wrong with government. And we've made it a representation of everything that government can do well. We save people time. We have kiosks in grocery stores. And as I look to what we need to do to drive down costs here in Michigan, a lot of it is just running government well, making sure health care is accessible and the like. So I'm proud we've been able to transform one of our largest agencies to make sure it's saving people time, saving people money, and making your life easier. And now I want all of government to work that well for all the people.

AB: You're a Democrat. If elected, you would be following a Democrat in office. Tell us about what would you keep doing as governor and what policies would you want to change?

JB: Well, one of the things that I will prioritize as governor is improving our public education systems. And we're coming off of three decades of back-to-back efforts of Republicans defunding our schools at a higher rate than any other state in the nation. That's a big reason why we see the numbers we're seeing today in reading scores and the like. So I want to continue reinvesting in our schools, which the Whitmer administration has done, providing free lunch and breakfast for kids as well. But we need to do more. We need to better pay our teachers, we need to support our schools. And I need to, and I want to redo our funding structure to ensure that we are meeting the unique needs of every district.

So improving education and also administering government in a way that works for folks. When I look at healthcare affordability, we need a governor who's going to make sure the Department of Health and Human Services is more efficient and more directly able to serve the people, to help us appeal unfair health insurance denials, to take on medical debt, and demand more transparency in medical billing. So that captures a lot of our plans for driving down costs and improving our state. And so it's a continuation. But also, I'm running to bring transformational change to our schools, to our economy, to our state.

AB: We do hear quite a bit from voters about rising costs in their lives. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that you would do as governor to try to relieve that pressure on Michiganders?

JB: Yeah. I mean, everywhere I go, we're on our a statewide tour right now, people are sharing heartbreaking stories, particularly about the cost of health care, which is skyrocketing for small business leaders and families alike. And it's not lost on me that my opponent voted three times to raise health care premiums while I have a plan to lower them. But that's not all. We have to improve housing affordability, and we have a plan to increase the supply of affordable housing while supporting first- and second-time homeowners and holding accountable bad actors who are driving up costs. Also, electricity. We need to invest in clean energy infrastructure so that we are enabling the reduction of energy costs in the state, and also making sure child care is more affordable for folks. Increasing well-paying jobs by diversifying our economy, improving small business growth is also how we can increase affordability here in Michigan.

And above all, making sure we are making Michigan the place that our young people choose to call home. Again, as a mom, this is personal to me. I will move with a sense of urgency to make sure our state provides opportunities for employment, for jobs, for growth, and that we're investing in transformational things like high speed rail and other things that will help make our communities safe places for everyone to thrive.

AB: How much power does state government have to work on prices when many of the forces driving inflation are federal and global in nature?

JB: Well, as governor, I will use every tool available to me in my toolbox to drive down costs. A lot of that is streamlining the administration of government, but it's also being able to work with our legislature to find ways to modernize how we're building, how we're opening child care centers, how we're enabling small businesses to grow. So the legislative process and the executive working together can do a lot to to lower costs.

And make no mistake, one of the reasons why we're seeing a lot of costs go up recently are these tariffs, tariffs with Canada that are hitting Michiganders harder than any other state. And as governor, we're going to negotiate subnational agreements between Michigan and Canada to actually find ways to minimize the negative impact that these tariffs are having and make better agreements with our neighbors to the north that will protect our costs and protect our jobs.

AB: How can the state support Michigan businesses that are dealing with increased expenses because of tariffs right now?

JB: Well, in addition to negotiating agreements that could perhaps provide carve outs to tariffs for our auto suppliers in particular, also looking for ways that we can enable business to have a helping hand from government instead of government being an obstacle course. It too often is difficult oftentimes to start and grow a business, to scale up funds, and ensure we're supporting those entrepreneurs and innovators who want to make Michigan a place where they can grow their business.

So a lot that we can do to streamline how government works will help small businesses grow, will help medium and existing businesses grow. And then also investing in talent workforce development, not just in better schools, but in apprenticeships and other opportunities that will help our businesses grow and find the talent they need to thrive. The great news about that is that it also creates well-paying jobs for our citizens, and everyone can see Michigan as a place where they can start and grow their business, start and grow their career, and above all, thrive.

AB: Can I ask what you mean by carve outs to the tariff agreements?

JB: Yeah. So there's plenty of examples of of subnational agreements where you're making an agreement between the state of Michigan and Canada that could, for example, and Maine has done this on rock salt for their roads. Say, when this particular product just goes between Michigan and Canada or vice versa, we want to exempt it from tariffs, particularly tariffs that Canada is placing on the U.S. that are driving up costs as well as some things in exchange. And then many governors can have the opportunity to work with the Department of Commerce to, once that agreement, is set to get approval, to protect those exemptions. And again, that's what a governor does: try to find every possible way to protect our state from bad decisions being made at the federal government level that are driving up costs for Michiganders.

AB: Data centers are a very contentious topic in communities across Michigan. How should the governor's office address backlash to data center development?

JB: Well, I believe that we see a lot of a lot of times where data centers are driving up, are making it hard for communities to thrive. And I've called for a moratorium until we have guardrails in place to actually ensure that data centers have to play by our rules if they're going to build here. That means protections for our water, protections for our energy costs, and above all, protecting local voices to ensure they have a say in community benefits agreements that will bring costs down in their own communities. Those types of guardrails and protections are critical to ensure that we are giving local citizens, the opportunity to have a say if a data center should even come to their community. And it's a sharp contrast to my opponent, who has voted four times against having any local say or supporting local citizens in having a say over whether data centers could come to their community.

As governor, I'll actually create a portal where people can see and evaluate data centers that are coming to their community, so that we can see collectively, and they can have their voice heard collectively, on any decisions being made that affect them.

AB: Could tell us about what you see as the greatest threat to democracy in Michigan right now, and how you would respond to that threat as governor?

JB: Well, as secretary of state, I've seen firsthand how far people will go to potentially not just overturn elections, but block people from even voting to begin with. And as secretary of state, that has meant working to prepare for any possibility that the federal government or anyone else, any other bad actors, could try to interfere with our elections or deny those results. And so the next governor has to be prepared, prepared as I am, to ensure citizens know their power, can exercise their vote, and can do so without any fear of intimidation or any other efforts to try to block their voice or their vote.

And make no mistake, the battle over the future of our democracy is still ongoing. It's one that we saw firsthand in 2020, when the president of the United States and my opponent spent millions of dollars trying to overturn fair and free elections, that we must continue to fight both as state leaders but also as citizens to stand up to. I say often how democracy is still on the ballot this year, and by electing state leaders, up and down the ticket, who will stand to protect the voice of the people and the votes of our citizens, that's how we can ensure best that our democracy continues to prevail, even against efforts at the federal level to try to undermine it.

Today on Stateside, a conversation with Abdul El-Sayed, Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate.

Stateside has made numerous interview requests to the Rogers campaign that have gone unanswered over the past several months. The offer remains open, and he is welcome to join us on the show next week.

Plus, Tapology, a Flint-based dance organization, celebrates its 25th anniversary this season. Frances Bradley, the program's artistic director, discussed the work behind introducing generations of dancers to the traditions of Black American tap dance.

Then, one canoe paddler's unique paddle collection, and his philosophy around gift-giving. This essay comes to us from the Points North podcast.

Finally, a conversation with Eli Savit, the Democratic candidate for Michigan attorney general. Find our interview with Republican candidate Doug Lloyd here.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Abdul El-Sayed, Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate
• Frances Bradley, acting CEO and artistic director of Tapology
• Darren Bush, writer, hospice chaplain, owner of Rutabaga Paddlesports in Madison, Wisconsin
• Eli Savit, prosecuting attorney for Washtenaw County, Democratic candidate for Michigan attorney general

Today on Stateside, new information in the death of Guatemalan immigrant Mario David Coronado Juarez in Grand Rapids. Last month, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers attempted to pull Juarez over in his car. When he tried to flee, he crashed into a tree and died less than half a block where ICE had initially tried to make contact. We talked to an organizer and immigrant rights advocate about how the community is reacting to Juarez's death in light of recently released 911 audio after the crash.

In a statement, the Department of Homeland Security said Coronado was driving a vehicle registered to another person who was in the U.S. without status and was wanted in Guatemala. They also stated that officers attempted to verify the driver’s identity during the traffic stop, but the driver fled at a high rate of speed. ICE officers also said they did attempt to help Juarez extinguish the fire before Grand Rapids emergency responders arrived.

Also, how a Michigan State University project that began 90 years ago with a donation of Arabian horses by W.K. Kellogg has turned into a world premiere breeding program. We visited with the program's new manager who graduated from it herself only a few years ago.

And, before Anna Sui filled the runways of New York Fashion Week with her iconic designs, there was metro Detroit — Hudson's fabric counters, rock concerts, and a teenager sewing her own clothes. We talked to the fashion designer about her Michigan roots ahead of "The World of Anna Sui" exhibition that opens October 21 at Cranbrook Art Museum in Bloomfield Hills.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW

• Gema Lowe, community organizer with Movimiento Cosecha
• Samantha Black, farm manager of the MSU Horse Teaching and Research Center
• Anna Sui, fashion designer

Before she ever staged a runway show, Madonna wore one of her dresses.

Some of the world's most famous supermodels helped launch her into the spotlight.

And Anna Sui went on to build an internationally recognized fashion label rooted in music, vintage style, and her own imagination.

But before New York Fashion Week, there was metro Detroit — Hudson's fabric counters, rock concerts, and a teenager sewing her own clothes. Now, her work is coming home.

“The World of Anna Sui” opens Wednesday, October 21 at Cranbrook Art Museum in Bloomfield Hills. The exhibition celebrates more than four decades of her work, featuring over 100 looks from her collections.

Sui’s visual language, full of sumptuous colors, textures, and attention to detail, formed one of the most iconic global portfolios of the 1980s, 1990s, and beyond. In Sui’s world, shape evokes history while telling a modern story, whether in a jet-beaded corset top, riffs on the babydoll dress with glitzy cowgirl stylings, or bright bohemian prints reminiscent of midcentury style, twisted into a contemporary sarong.

Sui told the story of Madonna’s 1991 star turn at a Jean Paul Gaultier show in Paris, stunning the crowd with Sui’s off-shoulder black babydoll dress.

“Moments before that,” Sui said, “we had been at the Ritz, picking her up from her room, and the room was filled with shopping bags and racks of clothes from every Parisian designer … I just thought … ‘People are just, throwing their things at her.’”

In addition to introducing Sui’s work to a global audience, she said the day boosted her confidence.

“It really helped me feel like maybe I could go into that arena," Sui said.

Growing up in metro Detroit, Sui was a regular in department stores like Hudson’s, soaking up trends and observing how they worked, but also spent her nights seeing artists such as Iggy Pop, Led Zeppelin, and the MC5.

“It was so formative for me because when I decided I wanted to do fashion, I wanted to design clothes for people that went to rock concerts and for rock stars," she said. "That was, kind of, my focus in the beginning. But then it kind of changed once I started selling to different stores and understanding what their formulas were and really getting more and more involved in fashion. It was very, very important in my thinking.”

Chief Curator Laura Mott collaborated on adapting the exhibition (which originated at the Fashion and Textile Museum, London) for its time at Cranbrook.

"Genres of music,” Mott said, “play a critical role in Anna's artistic inspirations, from punk and grunge to mod and psychedelic rock. Seeing the exhibition here highlights the cultural environment that helped shape her creative vision."

Through the changes in her career, Sui has maintained longstanding creative partnerships, including with Detroit-founded jewelry company Erickson Beamon. Designer Karen Erickson has worked with Sui since her first runway show, creating jewelry inspired by Sui's fabrics, colors, and collections. Her Detroit connections also include musician Jack White and Third Man Records, for which she designed uniforms.

“We developed this whole family of people that really supported me through all these years of doing runway shows,” Sui said.

In addition to the Cranbrook exhibition, Sui is planning pop-up shops in Detroit, including one at Third Man Records.

“I'm thrilled because I have, still, so many roots here,” she said.

The World of Anna Sui opens October 21 at Cranbrook Art Museum in Bloomfield Hills, and will be on view through February 28, 2027.

Hear Anna Sui's full conversation with Stateside host April Baer using the audio player above - or tune in to Stateside from 3-4 p.m. Tuesday, October 20.

We follow the U.S. Senate campaign trail through Michigan’s Upper Peninsula and celebrate a standout year for one of the state’s favorite shorebirds, the piping plover.

We also examined the candidates running for Detroit school board and explored how Michigan State University built a nationally recognized Arabian horse breeding program.

GUESTS:

• Sarah Saunders, Senior Manager of Quantitative Science for National Audubon Society
• Hannah Dellinger, Chartbeat reporter and Micah Walker, Bridge Detroit reporter
• Kate Furby, Michigan Public's environment reporter
• Russ McNamara, Michigan Public reporter
• Mark Harvey, Archives of Michigan archivist

Today on Stateside, the details of lawsuit against the Michigan Department of Corrections. A woman is suing the agency over allegations that officers at the Women’s Huron Valley Correctional Facility used their body cams to record her without consent while she was giving birth and during her postpartum care. According to her attorney, the experience has left her traumatized.

Then, another installment of What The Vote?, a series highlighting Gen Z voters, their priorities, and their concerns leading up to the 2026 Midterms. This week, a Muskegon city commissioner and resident talked about the qualities she hopes to see in a candidate.

Also, a window into the operations at Froehlich's, a beloved bakery in Three Oaks, Michigan. Founder Colleen Froehlich joined us to talk about her new cookbook, The Froehlich's Cookbook: Recipes and Stories from the Beloved Restaurant and Bakery.

Plus, an off-Broadway play about the Flint Water Crisis makes its way to theatres in Michigan this week. We spoke with the writer and director behind The Poisoner. After the show in Detroit, there will be a talkback with the audience with Michigan Public’s Lindsey Smith and Vince Duffy, who were in Michigan Public's newsroom and closely followed the Flint Water Crisis in 2014.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Zena Issa, criminal justice reporter for Michigan Public
• Kiley Jackson, Muskegon city commissioner at-large
• Colleen Froehlich, founder of Froelich's Bakery
• Lee Sunday Evans, director, The Poisoner
• Maura McCarthy Haney, writer, The Poisoner
  

Today on Stateside, how Lansing's unhoused community is processing the violent deaths of five unhoused individuals on a trail along the Grand River. Lansing's Police Department is investigating their deaths. We spoke with a reporter covering the story.

Then, a project coordinated by the Michigan Association of Intermediate School Administrators (MAISA) aimed to improve math instruction in elementary schools with below average math scores on standardized tests. Educators and researchers with the Early Mathematics project say the sustained approach had a meaningful impact, but funding for the project dried up this year.

Plus, how public sentiment has shifted since an Oct. 7, 2023 attack by Hamas killed around 1200 people in Israel. Reveal reporter Najib Aminy looked into how that shift is playing out in the 2026 Midterms, with particular focus on races in Michigan.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• John Agar, crime reporter for MLive
• Rusty Anderson, mathematics education consultant at Kent ISD
• Danielle Vossekuil, mathematics consultant for Muskegon Area ISD
• Alison Resnick, assistant research professor at the University of Colorado-Boulder 
• Najib Aminy, reporter for the Reveal podcast

The candidates for Michigan's U.S. Senate seat faced off in their first debate, tackling issues including the cost of living, housing, data centers, and foreign policy. We discussed the major takeaways with Michigan Public Radio Network reporter Russ McNamara. Then, we revisited a conversation about the Native American Education Program Library at Grand Rapids Public Schools, home to more than 3,000 books in 16 languages. Plus, Democratic candidate Will Lawrence joined us to talk about his campaign for Michigan's 7th Congressional District, where he's challenging Republican incumbent Tom Barrett.

Guests on today's show

• Russ McNamara, reporter for the Michigan Public Radio Network
• Amy Westcott, who led the effort to establish the Native American Education Program Library at Grand Rapids Public Schools
• Will Lawrence, Democratic candidate for Michigan's 7th Congressional District

Today on Stateside, a conversation with Michigan Supreme Court candidate Jody White. White is a longtime real estate broker in Southeast Michigan.

See all our interviews with the candidates for Michigan Supreme Court here.

Then, Interlochen Public Radio brought us a story about how Northern Michigan tribes are trying to bring back the Arctic grayling. The freshwater fish species was once abundant in the region’s rivers and streams.

We also learned about scientists' unique methods for detecting the invasive spotted lanternfly, plus ways you can help mitigate lanternfly populations at home.

And, state leaders have gone back and forth on the issue of resident IDs, or the ability for anyone living in the state to get a driver's license, regardless of citizenship. Two reporters discussed the history of resident IDs and its connection to local police department's collaboration with immigration enforcement officers.

Plus, we revisited a conversation with Irene Butter, a public health scholar and Holocaust survivor who lived in Ann Arbor. Her experience as a child led to decades of teaching and activism around global human rights. Butter passed away on Friday, Oct. 2.

Finally, we revisited a conversation with Anne Carson in celebration of her recently announced Nobel Prize for Literature.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Jody White, Michigan Supreme Court candidate and real estate broker
• Vivian La, climate solutions reporter at Interlochen Public Radio
• Kate Furby, senior environment reporter at Michigan Public
• Adam Yahya Rayes, data reporter at Michigan Public
• Koby Levin, senior reporter at Outlier Media
• Irene Butter, retired public health scholar and human rights activist
• Anne Carson, poet, translator, and essayist

Today on Stateside, a conversation with Michigan Supreme Court candidate Thomas W. Howe. Howe is a Fenton resident who was nominated by the U.S. Taxpayers Party of Michigan. He is one of six candidates running for the two seats on the Michigan State Supreme Court this November. 

See more interviews with the candidates for Michigan Supreme Court here.

Then, why cost of living and affordability remain top of mind for some young voters. We heard from a Wayne State University student in our latest installment of What the Vote?, a series of conversations with Gen Z voters leading up to the 2026 Midterm Elections.

Plus, a preview of the kinds of stories that will be told at this year's Detroit Story Fest, a live event featuring local journalists and storytellers. We featured two live recording from previous years' storytellers, Bryce Huffman and Shannon Cason.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Thomas W. Howe, Fenton resident and candidate for Michigan Supreme Court
• Cody Bannick, Bad Axe native and Wayne State University junior
• Bryce Huffman, engagement editor for Bridge Detroit
• Shannon Cason, Detroit-based storyteller and host of the podcast Homemade
  

Today on Stateside, a conversation with Michigan Supreme Court candidate Megan Cavanagh. She currently serves as chief justice of the Michigan Supreme Court. Cavanagh was selected by her fellow justices to be chief justice in 2025 after Chief Justice Elizabeth Clement resigned from the court. She was first elected to the court in 2018 and is running for a new eight-year term. 

See more interviews with the candidates for Michigan Supreme Court here.

Then, a closer look at a jaywalking stop that resulted in immigration enforcement being called. Our recent investigation found hundreds of cases where local police in Michigan turned people over to immigration enforcement.

Plus, the work being done to protect apples against threats like climate change, bacterial disease, and industrialization, and the crop of Beaver Island apples that might play a role in expanding genetic diversity. This story came from the Points North podcast.

And, why Traverse City leaders are considering a new ordinance which would allow police to arrest people in local parks for "prowling."

We also talked with a reporter investigating the use of anti-psychotics in sedating dementia patients. In some long-term care situations, medications have been used to sedate people with dementia in ways the makers of the drugs did not intend. 

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Megan Cavanagh, chief justice of the Michigan Supreme Court
• Adam Yahya-Rayes, data reporter for Michigan Public
• Austin Rowlader, reporter for Interlochen Public Radio
• Maxwell Howard, reporter for Interlochen Public Radio
• Jordan Rau, senior correspondent for KFF Health News

Today on Stateside, a conversation with Michigan Supreme Court candidate Noah Hood. In May of 2025, Hood was appointed to fill a vacancy on the state Supreme Court. That partial term will end at the end of this year.

See more interviews with the candidates for Michigan Supreme Court here.

Also, we heard from voters across Southeast Michigan about why cost of living is still top of mind leading up to the Midterm Elections.

Then, artists with disabilities from across the country will gather in Michigan this week for the Creating Community conference, a national conference focused on fostering creative spaces for artists with developmental disabilities and mental health differences.

The event is being organized by the Progressive Art Studio Collective (PASC), a Detroit-based organization. We spoke with the collective's founder, Anthony Marcellini and PASC artist Angela Rhodes, on what it takes to forge a path in the art world for work created by artists with disabilities.

Plus, in a new episode of the On Hand podcast, a sound-rich summation of the development and influence of techno music in Detroit.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Noah Hood, MI Supreme Court Justice
• Etai Smotrich-Barr, Reporting Fellow at Michigan Public
• Anthony Marcellini, founder and program manager of Progressive Art Studio Collective
• Angela Rhodes, Detroit-based artist part of the Progressive Art Studio Collective
• Carl Craig, techno DJ

• The Dexter Cider Mill is celebrating 140 years of operation, making it the longest continually operating mill in the state of Michigan.
• The mill’s cider blend includes an intricate combination of apple types, including golden delicious but never red delicious apples.
• The mill offers traditional fare like cider and doughnuts, but also sells hard cider and other apple-based products.

It’s October, which means it’s now cider mill season. And like every good Michigander, the Stateside team took a trip to Dexter Cider Mill to learn more about how they make their smooth cider and cakey, soft cinnamon sugar doughnuts.

And they’ve perfected both of those fall staples in their 140 years of operation, which they’re celebrating this year. The milestone marks them as the longest continually operating mill in the state of Michigan.

The Steinhauer family is behind that operation, led by Nancy and Marty and their adult children. Nancy joined Stateside to take them on a tour of the mill and walk them through the milling process. The tour started outside the mill, where giant bins of apples await the process of becoming a drink.

How the cider gets made

Nancy Steinhauer (NS): So this is the first step of the process. We get our apples delivered from a large orchard on the west side of the state, north of Grand Rapids. These we call these bins or boxes. There are 20 bushels. In each of these bins will come bins.

April Baer (AB): This place is a mob scene on the weekends. What day do the apples get delivered?

NS: So that varies. They come in in the middle of the night on a flatbed truck. It will either be Tuesday night or Wednesday night, so we have capability to unload them, get them ready for us to press. And then up here we start with washing the apples. They go down a grind. They go down through a washer, they get ground up and then we'll go down the press room.

AB: Nancy walks us down slope along the side of the building. We're headed to the Apple Press, which is subterranean for a few good reasons.

NS: Oh, look at that first key.

AB: Yay! Oh, wow. Okay, so we're going under the building.

NS: So they built the cider mill on the river. Well, one, they used to dump the mash in there, but also for the coolness. It's like a root cellar almost.

AB: What you see with this cider making machine is a shoot from above, a series of layered oak racks and a large stainless steel pan with a drain right in the middle. Off to the side. There's also a giant floor to ceiling wheel and pulley system. It powers the press and it has been here as long as the mill.

NS: So that's where we talked about. The washer is above us right here. And then the apples get washed and ground and then they come down into the press.

AB: So the ground up apples actually come down through a hole in the floor. Yeah. The chute. Yeah.

NS: Two stories for for gravity reasons back in the day when they didn't have the power to maneuver.

NS: So when my parents bought the mill this was all wood. Marty and I have changed it to stainless just for obviously safety reasons and whatnot. We have a little bit of the oak still in the process, which we think adds a lot to the cider, but again, a lot's been transferred over to stainless. This is our rolling rack. We will put an oak rack down first and then it's an oak and rack, excuse me, cloth and rack system. So then we would put a cloth down for bushels of apples. Fold that like an envelope, put another rack, another cloth for more bushels of apples. And at this point we're blending the apples upstairs. We use 3 to 5 different apples in the blend. Probably go through 20 to 25 different varieties throughout the season. As we progress through the season, the cider gets sweeter the longer the apple sits on the tree, the higher the sugar content. Therefore, the sweeter the cider. It's not. Just throw a bunch of apples in and see what you come up with. There is a method to our madness and my husband, Marty, does all that.

AB: So how? I mean, how amazing is it to that? The technology hasn't really brought any innovations that this that this press couldn't do. I love that.

NS: You we probably could have a more efficient press. This is very physical. The new ones, you know, they come with a grinder and you walk around with the hose. It's a little different, but we truly are trying to keep the tradition so people can come in and see how the cider was made 100 years ago. Some days, we'd like something a little easier, but Marty has just done a great job perfecting this. We're super efficient. I can't give him enough kudos to how he has been able to work this to keep up with the demands that we have upstairs for it. So.

AB: And the flavor really speaks for itself. I just wanted to note that there are a couple of wrenches and screwdrivers, and just like everything, you'd need to keep your press just the way you want it right at hand here.

NS: And if they're not here when we need them, somebody's in trouble. Because who took the… right? Exactly.

Laura Weber Davis: That wrench looks like it might be 440 years old.

NS: Yeah, it's enough grease on it for sure to have that. Absolutely.

Celebrating the traditions

AB: Now that we've gotten a tour of the mill, it's time to learn a bit more about the operation and how this one family supplies so many people with cider and doughnuts every day for multiple generations. I mean, there are people who have literally been coming here for generations. I bet you hear that a lot.

NS: I see that a lot. My parents bought the mill when I was a sophomore in high school. So, or excuse me, a sophomore in college, and I have watched families come in with their kids. Now those kids are bringing their kids and grandma. And, you know, the parents at that time were parents. And their grandparents. So that is one of my most favorite things of the mill. So tradition and generations coming in.

AB: Obviously, people come here from Dexter, and I think you get a lot of Ann Arbor rights too. Where else do people visit from?

NS: Well, we have tons of people from Chicago. We have had our pies travel internationally to Dubai, but he would pick up a pie frozen. By the time he landed, his wife had the oven on, the pie was defrosted and into the oven it went. So we, I mean, just everywhere. The football games bring people in from whoever they're playing against and whatnot. So we've got great friends from Maryland that come in that we've befriended through the cider mill and all over the country, which is amazing.

AB: So it's just so nice that everyone, you know, from all over, wherever they're coming from, can enjoy this. Unless, of course, they're from Columbus, Ohio.

NS: Yes, right. Yes. But we welcome everybody. So red or white or blue and gold or green and white. We're all here for it. So, yeah.

The history behind the mill

AB: You mentioned the fact that your folks bought the operation in your lifetime. Can you tell us a little bit about the history of this building going all the way back?

NS: Going all the way back? Well, I did just find something interesting out. It was a flour mill before a cider mill. So that is new information. So I have to dig into that a little bit. But in 1886, Mr. Van Natter built this for farmers to bring their apples in because their drinking water was a poor quality around. So that's the guy that was the basis of the cider mill. He sold it to the Wagners. And then at that point it started to become more of a family tradition. And then obviously my parents bought it from the Wagners, and we've just continued on with that. So just the fall fun of cider and doughnuts and a crisp day with the leaves changing. And yeah.

AB: We are on a river. Do you know if a paddle wheel was at one point a part of this operation?

NS: There was no paddle wheel ever. People. That is a big assumption because we are on the river. What the owners did before us is, and there's tracks out there, they have a little trolley cart. They would dump the mash into the river. So we've been told the fish were like massive because of all the vegetation that the mash provided. So we don't do that anymore. But that is another reason why it's on the river for disposal.

AB: How did your parents get the idea that, you know what? We might want to buy a cider mill?

NS: Right. So many years ago, actually 61 or 2 years ago, they were here on a date. My dad's from the East Coast. The mill reminded him of being back home. And he said to my mom, someday, I'd love to own something like this. And lo and behold they purchased it as a retirement project. No idea what we were doing, just thought it would be fun to have a cider mill. My mom has a food background so she was great with the doughnut situation. We were told that some guys would help us transition and teach my dad and whatnot, and that didn't last very long. So we dug in and here we are and we know what we're doing. So we figured it out.

AB: Yes. You learn by doing.

NS: Correct. Exactly.

AB: At what point did you and your husband start to take more of a role in the operations?

NS: Actually, we, in 2003, Marty and I ... So when my parents bought the mill, obviously, I said I was a sophomore in college, finished my education, kind of did my thing for a while, was still working here on the weekends, helping my parents. And then when I had my kids, my dad just said, come on, let's just just do this with me and we'll whatever. And that's when I was just here full time, worked seasonally. And then Marty obviously would help on the weekends and whatnot. He may scratch his head at that point going, what are we getting into? But it's been perfect for us with our children. Now they're involved. You know, they had a great time growing up here. Their wives are all on board. Grandkids are popping in on the weekends, so just hope to continue it on. Yeah.

What it takes to operate the mill

AB: What kind of life is it?

NS: I think, I do think it's funny, somebody asked us the other day, like what? What do people, don't see behind the scenes? And our hours are crazy. I mean, I'm up at three in the morning. 3:30 arrival. You know, we do close at five. We're out of here pretty, well at five, and we're closed Monday and Tuesdays. I don't take those days off. It's busy, but it's OK. I mean, we people think we work three months out of the year, which is not so. I mean, there's more to it than that. A lot of prepping paperwork, all that kind of stuff. Physically, you know, three months we are here. But it's fun. We have it down. I've done it so long. We've got the routine, got it figured out a little bit.

AB: So the time when a lot of people really start paying attention is toward the end of August, the beginning of September, you know, the mornings start to get a little cooler, a little crisp. But when do you consider the onset? Where does your prep start for prime cider season?

NS: So when do we start prepping for… We probably come back, well, Marty's here a lot in the winter just because hard cider is brewing and adding and stuff like that. So that's the other thing too with the hard cider that's year round now for the most part. I probably start prepping, I've learned a lot. I would come in, I'd clean everything and then I'd just have to do it all over again because it would sit for months. So I probably start prepping like April. We paint all the floors. We paint walls every season because the building is so old. We're trying to get some big projects under our belt. So the kids, when they do take over eventually, hopefully that the bigger things are out of the way and they can just focus on the business. So we try to do a big project every year, whether we do it or hire it out. So April, I'm back over here. April: doughnut machines, like I said, painting, all that kind of stuff.

AB: The flavor is unlike any other, I got to say, you know, if people aren't drinking fresh cider, I don't even know what they're doing. But how would you describe the ingredients that go into making a really good glass of cider.

NS: We look for the acidity. We look for the skin color, the sugar content of the apple. Those are all items that we look at before we start pressing. So we don't want like an all Jonathan cider way too tart, way too dark. We don't want a total delicious, which we only use golden delicious. We don't use red delicious - high sugar content. So there is a method to our madness with our blending for sure.

All about the doughnuts

AB: Of course. Also no visit to the cider mills complete without the doughnuts. I confess that might be my favorite part. How do you describe [these]? For those five people who may be listening, who haven't haven't experienced them, how do you describe cider doughnuts?

NS: They are a fry cake, a traditional fry cake. Just a bunch of yummy stuff fried in a machine. They go down, they flip halfway over. Some are plain, some are cinnamon sugared, but they're just sweet and yummy.

AB: Nancy, how long have doughnuts been part of the operation here at the Dexter mill?

NS: Oh, the entire time we've had the mill. And I know the previous owners had it. I'm not quite sure before the Wagners what they did then, but we have pictures of people standing. They used to use this door right here, and they didn't have a salesroom before, so they would just make the doughnuts and cider and sell it right out the door here.

AB: So I imagine the folks on the bakery side of the operation, just having this enormous shaker of specialness that they just shake in. How what what is your secret? Why are the doughnuts so good here?

NS: My mom just perfected it. I mean, honestly, with her food background, we have a huge following for doughnuts, obviously. We just take pride in what we do, and we're precise with what we do, and we just. Some days the machines are a little trickier than others, and we just love them a little bit and just say, come on, keep going, keep going, keep going. And they do.

AB: Are the machines on the doughnut making side of the operation also? I don't want to say historic, but ...

NS: No. ... But I know there's bigger and better ones out there. But these work for us and we only have two doughnut machines. I mean, we kick out a lot of doughnuts for, I mean, we don't stop on busy October Saturdays and Sundays all day long. We have a little batch board. So we know how many batches we make a day and stuff like that. So that's kind of fun for us to always watch and stuff. But yeah they are, they are… I know there's something better out there, but these are perfect for us. They work. No, not a better doughnut, maybe a better piece of equipment. But we love ours, so yeah, yeah yeah yeah. No, our doughnuts are good. So we'll just stay with what we have on the equipment end.

AB: So there are other places where you can get apple cider. There are other places where you can get doughnuts. I know this is a very controversial thing for me to say, but I just feel like here in Michigan, people, this is so much a part of what they do in September and October. Have you ever seen any place else that really leans into cider culture like we do?

NS: I would say New York probably has you know, so New York, Washington State and Michigan are, you know, the three top Apple producing states in the country. So I just think everybody does it a little bit differently. It's funny in Michigan, from what I've seen, everybody has their cider mill. Like if you're Dexter Cider Mill, they're very territorial of their cider mills. It's pretty interesting. And it's fun for us to follow, but the other states that I think I know Ohio has a few, but I think the culture in Michigan with the leaves changing and all that and the terrain. And there's 120 cider mills in Michigan. I mean, it's a big yeah, that number may have dwindled a little bit, but between I would say probably between 100, 120 still some are big. We are very small in the cider mill spectrum, much bigger facilities out there than we are, but we don't want to change anything and we have no more room to expand. So what you see is what you get. So yeah. And we just try to do what we do really well. So people continue to come back.

AB: The Dexter Cider Mill is on the outskirts of downtown Dexter. Look for the bags of cider doughnuts with the spots on the outside. Nancy Steinhauer, congratulations on 140 years of Dexter Cider Mill.

NS: Thank you. We're super honored and just thrilled we can carry on with the tradition. Thank you.

Editor's note: Some quotes in this article have been lightly edited for length and clarity. You can play the full audio of the interview near the top of this page.

Today on Stateside, we continued a series of conversations with candidates running for Michigan's Supreme Court. Casandra Morse-Bills is a Republican, and a presiding judge for a state circuit court on the edge of Saginaw Bay.

Then, reporting on how Michigan farmers are faring with high diesel prices during this year's harvest.

Also, photographer Joseph Ferraro talked about his practice of zooming in on insect life. Ferraro's workspace is part of a Detroit building in which artists are hosting open studios this weekend.

Finally, we spoke with advocate Valerie von Frank. The founder of Parents of Sister Survivors Engage (POSSE), von Frank has assisted survivors of sexual assault in legal and personal struggles. We turn to her for perspectives on the Cornell Seven case, in which an unnamed student is suing the university, her sorority, and a Cornell fraternity and seven of its members for an alleged sexual assault.

GUESTS ON TODAY'S SHOW:

• Casandra Morse-Bills, presiding judge in Michigan’s 23rd Judicial Court
• Steve Carmody, Mid-Michigan reporter for Michigan Public.
• Joseph Ferraro, photographer.
• Valerie von Frank, founder of Parents of Sister Survivors Engage (POSSE).

Today on Stateside, where do young people turn when the moral stances that move them are not easy to find in the current political landscape? We talked to one young voter to find out in our latest installment of What the Vote?.

Then, Michigan's environmental agency is sending investigators to look into complaints of noxious odors using finely tuned instruments: their noses.

Plus, journalist Andrew Lapin brought us a tale of two bridges: the Ambassador, the Gordie Howe, and the guy who put a wrench in U.S.-Canadian relations.

Finally, scientists at the University of Michigan have figured out a new way to break down nitrate, a major water pollutant found in fertilizers. We talked to one of the lead researchers about what this could mean for cleaning up the country's waterways.

Looking for today’s It’s Just Politics? You can find it here.

Guests on today's show:

• Dewaynia English, young voter from Kentwood, Mich.
• Elliot Russell, WMUK reporter
• Andrew Lapin, senior reporter with the Jewish Telegraphic Agency
• Nathaniel Szymczak, Professor of Chemistry at the University of Michigan
  

There have been many instances of massive turnout at public meetings about data centers in communities throughout the state of Michigan. Angry and concerned residents are expressing frustration with their public officials about even the potential of a new build, or the concerns over facilities that are already under construction.

In many cases, elected officials may have less recourse on the matter. A new survey from the Ford School for Public Policy at the University of Michigan shows most elected officials also have hesitations or skepticism themselves about new data center proposals. Stephanie Leiser, director of the Center for Local, State and Urban Policy at the U of M's Ford School (CLOSUP), led this survey and joined Stateside's April Baer to discuss.

April Baer: Stephanie, welcome back to Stateside. It's good to see you.

Stephanie Leiser: Wonderful to be here.

AB: Before we get to the results, I'm just curious, were you able to get responses from very many local governments that you asked about this?

SL: Yes. So we run this survey regularly, and it is our goal to achieve a 70% response rate. And there's 1,856 cities, villages, townships, and counties in the state. And so we hear from 70% of them. And I think one thing that allows us to do is hear from parts of the state that we don't often hear from.

AB: Meaning to say smaller units of government.

SL: Smaller communities, smaller townships. And and as we know, these are some of the people who have the strongest feelings about data centers right now.

AB: I saw from the overview of the numbers that a majority of people who responded expected strong opposition. How did that line up with how they actually felt about the data centers themselves?

SL: So we noticed a few interesting things. When you ask sort of generally, do you think data centers, you know, considering all the costs and benefits, do you think they're worth it? When you ask them just themselves in general, there's maybe some receptiveness to it, but still opposition more than support. But then when you sort of zoom in and say, how do you think your residents feel? Or how do you think your city council or your board feels about this? That's when the opposition gets a little bit stronger. There are all kinds of things to consider with data centers in the community and things that might be on the cost side and the benefit side. Not surprisingly, there's a lot of concern about fresh water and utility bills and public health and quality of life. But one thing we uncovered too is there's, you know, generally a recognition among public officials that this may still have some positive effects, like you know, they are thinking about economic competitiveness. They are thinking about impact on local property tax base. And still, well, while you weigh all of those things together, there is, you know, much more opposition than there is support. I think this is a more nuanced conversation than sometimes we hear about.

AB: Did you get a sense of whether municipal leaders in rural settings felt very differently than people in more urban settings?

SL: Yeah, definitely. We see stronger opposition in rural communities. It's partly a function of, you know, this is where they're being sited, right? You can't plunk down a gigantic data center in the middle of a city. And so they are looking at more rural parts of the state, you know, so that's part of it too, is that this is definitely something that is impacting their communities more, but also that you know, when you have smaller townships or smaller communities, it's sort of a David and Goliath situation. Like how can you expect them to bargain with and deal with these massive companies and massive developments. So it's also a sort of a capacity issue as well as a political issue for, for smaller and rural places.

AB: Did you notice many responses to the survey that reflected a sense of inevitability?

SL: I think there's definitely a sense of inevitability. And we did get a lot of comments to that effect. But I think that sort of could go one of two ways. Like it's inevitable. So we might as well take advantage of it, is I think maybe the minority opinion. And then the, you know, maybe we got more opinions to the effect of: this is inevitable. What can we do? We just sort of throw up our hands and accept our fate.

AB: Were there any questions that were part of the survey that that might have given us some insight into how local leaders feel like they're going to decide these questions.

SL: Well, I think one thing that's also really important that pops out of the survey is how much they are sort of begging the state for help. And this is actually somewhat surprising because local governments are often very, you know, like, stay out of our business, let us handle ourselves. But I think in this case, they're, they're really asking the state for help. So, what happens with decommissioning if these projects stop functioning? And this, you know, like they're so big and they're such large users of utilities, this is a big concern for down the road. They want help from the state to think through health and environmental impacts. They want the state to help them deal with regulations around water use and discharge. They don't want the state to interfere in their ability to do zoning and planning and siting of centers. They want to maintain that authority. But the types of resources that they're looking for; 57% say it would be very useful to have model ordinances. 57% say that they'd really like help, you know, guidance negotiating with data centers. They want to try to coordinate with the county and their other local governments. They need help figuring out how to do resident engagement. There's a lot of need. And I think there's a kind of frustration with the state that, you know, the state adopted these incentives for data centers, and now they're just sort of sitting on the sidelines, leaving local governments to fend for themselves and deal with all their angry residents in the process. So it's really they're kind of between a rock and a hard place.

AB: Stephanie Leiser directs the Center for Local, State and Urban Policy within the University of Michigan's Ford School. Stephanie, it's good to talk to you. Thank you for your help with this.

SL: Very happy to. Thanks!

Editor's note: Some quotes in this article have been lightly edited for length and clarity. You can play the full audio of the interview near the top of this page.